Vampire

[Elenka]

Originally posted by Jonathan
If I can't feel or see any proof at all that magic exists, then why should I believe that it does exist?

Take religion as an example. This may not work for you, you may not be religious, but hear me out!

People will do just about anything in the name of God. Prove to me that God exists. If you believe in God, why not in magic? I am not religious in that sense, but it's all a warped question of belief and how you see reality. I see reality uniquely to myself, so I can't expect others to understand. I'm just throwing out my oppinion in the hopes that someone gets it. Also, this theory to try and sum up the arguments: In my reality, I'm right, as you are in yours.

Call me crazy. I hear it a lot.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, I do believe in magic, though no doubt of a different kind than what you believe in.

[Jonathan]

I agree that every individual lives in his own reality. Some religious people believe in God and lives in a reality where God is always present in their lives. Religion "works" for them. However, religion doesn't really "work" for people who don't believe in it, and religious people know this.
It seems to be different with magic, though. Magic, if it exists, should "work" for everyone, and I have the impression that this is what magic believers think.
The people who claim to be real magicians can surely cast working spells upon other magic-believers. If they know they have a spell on them, reality as they see it will be affected.
However, magicians can't put a spell on a person who doesn't believe in magic. The non-believers are "immune" to magic.

That's the whole thing with voodoo. It only works on people who
1) believe in it, and
2) know that someone has used some voodoo on them.

Summary: Spell casters believe their magic can affect everyone, including those who don't believe in magic. But it doesn't. If magic did exist, it should be able to affect non-believers as well. When magic only "works" for people who want to believe in it, is it then right to call it "real" magic?

Again I hope I make sense.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I have to disagree with you there. There have been, for example, missionaries whom the local witch doctor resented, and burned their church down through voodoo. They were not in the area at the time, and had no way of knowing about it. Even if they did, how would they perceive the church as being burned down?

[Jonathan]

In your "reality" that church was burnt down because of voodoo, because you believe in magic.
I don't believe in magic, therefore in my reality this sounds just like a tale. Even if it's not a tale and a church somewhere was burnt down, no one can prove that voodoo was involved. A fire can start in many ways. Of all the possible and different ways a fire can start, it sounds very unlikely to me that voodoo or any kind of magic was behind it. It's almost crazy to assume that something supernatural started a fire.
Of course a fire can seemingly start in an inexplicable way, but even then there is an explination, though it can be hard or impossible to find.

I have seen incredible things which have seemed to be a message from God or something, because those things have occured at exactly the right moment.
But in my "reality" I don't believe in supernatural things, why I instead seek an explanation in chance.
By incredible chance, those strange things happened at a moment which made them seem supernatural. God is only present in the lives of those who believe in him. Chance is present in the lives of everyone.

I hope I'm still making sense

[Silverstripe]

I suppose it all comes down to a matter of one question: what is reality? Is every person's reality different? Is reality what we see it as, or believe it is? If so, then do we make reality? If we create our own reality by what we believe, then everything is relative.

This would mean that every belief a person has is true, for that person. It's simply their "reality." And if this is the way of the world, how could there actually be such a thing as insanity? Likewise, good and evil could not exist in such a world, except in the minds of individuals.

If, however, there are things that exist simply because they are, regardless of whether or not anyone believes in them, then reality means something, and beliefs can be either true or untrue. Then, there is only one reality, and there are absolutes. Good and evil would not be a simple matter of opinion. This is the world I believe in.

Ah, the nature of reality ... a debate that will last through the ages...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree with Silverstripe. And before we COMPLETELY hijack the thread, let's change the subject back to vampires.

Ok, thoughts anyone on the legends of vampires? Or interesting historical beliefs, or actual persons who gave birth to vampire legends?

[Jonathan]

Is it just me, or does this reality discussion make one think of The Matrix?
Anyway, it is possible that no one can ever define the word reality, but "the truth is out there"!

To get back to the subject, did you know that one of the main characters in Bram Stoker's Dracula was called Jonathan? Well, at least in the film, where Jonathan was played by Keanu Reaves. He might have another name in the book.

[congressmn]

ok, i just found a vamp. a really nasty blood suckin one.

just give me your address, and a check of 2,000 USD and i will send the damn vamp to you.

deal?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

If you mean that everyone's perception of reality (which I believe, is a constant, and unchanged by one's beliefs, except that it becomes real that one believes one way or another) is flawed, then I would certainly agree with you on that. I believe that reality, truth, and the like are pure absolutes, but that no one could ever have a completely correct view on that.

But anyway, back (semi) on-topic.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Is it just me, or does this reality discussion make one think of The Matrix?
Anyway, it is possible that no one can ever define the word reality, but "the truth is out there"!

To get back to the subject, did you know that one of the main characters in Bram Stoker's Dracula was called Jonathan? Well, at least in the film, where Jonathan was played by Keanu Reaves. He might have another name in the book.

Do you mean the one entitled "Bram Stoker's Dracula"? I haven't seen that one yet, though I intend to soon. I've seen the old silent 'Nosferatu', 'Dracula' with Jack Palance, and 'Dracula 2000', I think are the only ones.

[Silverstripe]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Is it just me, or does this reality discussion make one think of The Matrix?

It's not just you. But where do you think the people that made The Matrix got their ideas? No, obviously not from this particular discussion, unless we want to bring time travel into the mix. And I suggest we don't.

Originally posted by Jonathan
To get back to the subject, did you know that one of the main characters in Bram Stoker's Dracula was called Jonathan?

Yes, that was the hero's name in the book as well.

Originally posted by Jonathan
Well, at least in the film, where Jonathan was played by Keanu Reaves.

Interesting, that, considering you were just talking about The Matrix!

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Silverstripe
Interesting, that, considering you were just talking about The Matrix!

Oh, I didn't even think about that! What a coincidence

Gwaimir, yes I meant the film named "Bram Stoker's Dracula" from 1992.

[elvishfaerie3088]

WoW these responses just go on and on and on. *laughs* anyhow. congressmn you found a vamp did ya? well could you tell me a bit about this vamp? i'd like a bit of info on 'em first. Insidious Rex since when do vamps cast spells? ah well you see they do it's just very tricky and honestly not very smart to try so yes i'm calling myself stupid for doing this. I can't remember who said uh that i was using a recipe maybe? no i am not using a recipe it may have or sounds like i am but i'm not this is an old old old spell that i know, it's been passed down to me from resources uknown. it's not a recipe its kind of hard to say what it is. Now Jonathan i hate to go back onto this again but you said that magick doesn't exist that if you can't see it or there's no proof that it really is there then you don't believe in it, well then let me ask you this....do you believe in love? you can't see it and there's no proof that it exists EXPLAIN THAT ONE! *curses* I hope that fouls you up enought that u'll shut up about it. lousy punk. Sorry i'm in a touch of a bad mood so if i say anything really cruel take little to no offnese to it. And if you ask me reality is the same thing as time...non-existint how do we know it's real how do we know it's there, how did we come up with time and if time is non-existant than we just live our lives around a lie which would make our lives a lie and everything we know a lie. srry i like crap like that. Anyhow that's all i have to say for now, but who ever said 1st lets get back on track i don't want to hi-jack this thread or what not. I agree lets TRY to stick to it but hey we'll always lead off sometime or another known fact, *laughs*

[Insidious Rex]

Actually I think the metaphysical discussion weve gotten into is much more interesting then the original. But thats just me.

[Jonathan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the people who likes drinking blood (the "vampires"), aren't they usually satanists?

There is proof that love exists! I see loving couples every day!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

You don't know that that has anything to do with actual love. It could merely be fleshly desires.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

IR: There's certainly nothing wrong with discussing that. But if you want to, you should probably start a new topic about it.

[Elenka]

I give up. I'm sick to death of arguing. I can't win. So I'll back off. *walks away muttering about headaches and quartz crystals and horseshoes and stone.*

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
You don't know that that has anything to do with actual love. It could merely be fleshly desires.

What, don't you have faith in humans? Are we just like animals with a single desire to pass on our genes?

Anyway, I've started a new thread here, dealing with metaphysical questions. We can continue our discussion there, leaving this vampire thread to it's destiny...