Do we still need a space program?

[Elenka]

My opinion is that, since we have no hope of ever getting out of, say, our universe, what's the point? If we're never going to get far enough to really, really make it worth it, why are we trying? Ok, so say we could some how get out of our galaxy. Good. We have passed a goal. What next? Explore the next galaxy over? And after that, the next? And the next? The task will never end, we could strive forever, and never reach the end of space. So really, what's the point? How is anything we learn going to help us in the long run?

This is just my opinion so please don't kill me if it's not what you think.

[BeardofPants]

One could also have said: what's the point of sending ships half way around the world into unknown, uncharted territory. If they hadn't taken the plunge, America would not have been discovered. Much the same can be said of space. Just cos we don't have the technology now, doesn't mean that it will be forever beyond us. Who knows: maybe there's another "America" to be discovered out there?.... God help us all.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Elenka
My opinion is that, since we have no hope of ever getting out of, say, our universe, what's the point? If we're never going to get far enough to really, really make it worth it, why are we trying? Ok, so say we could some how get out of our galaxy. Good. We have passed a goal. What next? Explore the next galaxy over? And after that, the next? And the next? The task will never end, we could strive forever, and never reach the end of space. So really, what's the point? How is anything we learn going to help us in the long run?

Wait wait. Why do we need to get out of our universe? Whats wrong with our solar system? or the galaxy? Just because the universe is infinite doesnt mean we should just write the whole idea of travelling off. I mean why walk accross the street? Its all a part of the universe.

In my opinion the solar system alone is "far enough to make it worth it". Certainly the galaxy. I think we need a quick scale lesson to remind us just what we are talking about here:

Theres something like 200 million stars in our galaxy alone. of which ONE is our star the sun. And we havent even scratched the surface here in our "little" solar system so why dont we concentrate on that first before we start pushing the walls of the universe. Now there are about 100 billion GALAXIES in the known universe. (Im doing these numbers from memory so forgive me if im not totally accurate but the idea is theres a ton of stuff to explore out there). Once we start talking about "exploring the galaxy" using the word "we" stops applying really. Because by the time we get into other parts of the galaxy "we" will be different from what left earth centuries before. If and when we actually push out beyond the galaxy itself "we" will be "them". We will have diversified a million times over. So really our only worry needs to be the next stepping stone. Which is Mars or somewhere in our solar system. we have more then enough here to keep us busy for quite a while.

[Coney]

It seems that China is looking out further than our orbit.

Mining on the Moon

I can see some big international arguments breaking out, it this ever comes to fruition.

[Insidious Rex]

But dont we have enough cheese here on earth?

[IronParrot]

Not according to Wallace and Gromit, we don't.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Well said, Elenka.

So really, what's the point?

There are very few job openings for the many space-minded people in and out of academia right now who want to sit back and do a Sagan, not to mention the ancillary interests in the private sector. When you get right down to it, it's all about lateralization, as compared to Apollo's vertical thrust; or if you will (and many won't, I know ), it's about "what's in it for me" versus a presidential mandate to put a man on the moon.

The latter worked out. The former will not.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
We have millions of years ahead of us barring any massive catastrophies....

Oh, please don't say that to somebody with geologic training The more time, the more massive the movement on this ever-changing earth. We understand that it's nature and natural; it only gets called "catastrophic" when it interferes with human plans, which somehow always seem to include brainless things like hanging one's home on the hillside formed by the San Andreas Fault because the view is so terrific, or building a six-digit home on a beach in a hurricane- or flood- or fire-prone area, and then wailing that the things were destroyed.

The scale is invariant, and so in our own civilizations throughout the world we should expect such massive "catastrophes" over time, in the short term as well as the long, rather than not even take them into consideration.

And in space, everything natural is deadly to us....

Please people keep in mind that there are ONLY two possibilities for the future of our species: Expansion or Extinction. There is no third option about being content and all six billion of us actively deciding to sit around and read poetry. Navel gazing is the equivilent of extinction in the long run.

I know you don't mean it that way, but in spite of that, it's still moving in the direction of what I was talking about earlier -- about things among groups of people getting difficult and eventually ugly -- to say contentment is not an option. It is indeed an option, and one of the most popular of our dreams and goals.

OK, so some people still disagree over Robert Frost's ability to write free verse, but none argue that he had a good ear for dialect and the rhythm of New England life. But will there be no poetry written in space that has broad appeal for those billions of us who remain on earth by choice or destiny? Somehow, I believe that indeed will be the case.

As for the contemplative life, the Buddhists are 2600 years along and are still forever young, showing no signs of flagging or boredom.

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
One could also have said: what's the point of sending ships half way around the world into unknown, uncharted territory. If they hadn't taken the plunge, America would not have been discovered. Much the same can be said of space. Just cos we don't have the technology now, doesn't mean that it will be forever beyond us. Who knows: maybe there's another "America" to be discovered out there?.... God help us all.

yea, without exploring, how can we be so sure that nothing better or anything else is out there? plus, when the sun blows up in 5 billion years, we'll need another place to go

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
Oh, please don't say that to somebody with geologic training The more time, the more massive the movement on this ever-changing earth. We understand that it's nature and natural; it only gets called "catastrophic" when it interferes with human plans, which somehow always seem to include brainless things like hanging one's home on the hillside formed by the San Andreas Fault because the view is so terrific, or building a six-digit home on a beach in a hurricane- or flood- or fire-prone area, and then wailing that the things were destroyed.

well i was thinking truly catastrophic actually. california falling into the ocean isnt going to kill us all and stop us going out into space. an asteroid the size of connecticut would. and as someone with "geologic training" Im sure you are aware that the earth goes through "normal" periodic extinction events every few hundred million years or so. like clock work. ask the dinosaurs. so something like that would be the only true threat to our expansion as a species (i mean besides ourselves of course). so all you folks slowly packing cause the sun will nova 5 billion years from now well you better hurry up because something major should happen to dear old earth long before then. id say you only have another hundred million years or so. or maybe 50. who knows....

The scale is invariant, and so in our own civilizations throughout the world we should expect such massive "catastrophes" over time, in the short term as well as the long, rather than not even take them into consideration.

if the killer asteroid hits then c'est la vie. why worry. but its no justification for actively not doing anything. thats just silly.

to say contentment is not an option. It is indeed an option, and one of the most popular of our dreams and goals.

world peace is a dream too. and so is an end to world hunger and disease and poverty and crime. and while we are at it why dont we end all wars and conflicts and hostilities everywhere in the world. all those things would be fabulous if we could achieve them. but they are pie in the sky hopes. because we cannot outrun our instincts no matter how sophisticated we think we are. and anyway the numbers just arent in our favor. there will always be people who wont resist their natural bad instincts. theres 6 billion of us. not 10 poets or 20 buddhist monks. 6 billion. statistically theres always gonna be nasty stuff going on. and theres always going to be a strong instinct to take the next step beyond. wherever it takes us. and frankly, compared to all those other things space exploration hardly seems as sinister. and who knows it may be the ticket to the next level of humanity where we can over come such things.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
There are very few job openings for the many space-minded people in and out of academia right now who want to sit back and do a Sagan, not to mention the ancillary interests in the private sector. When you get right down to it, it's all about lateralization, as compared to Apollo's vertical thrust; or if you will (and many won't, I know ), it's about "what's in it for me" versus a presidential mandate to put a man on the moon.

Are you referring to Carl Sagan? What do you mean by that statement? I am very fond of him and his books.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Are you referring to Carl Sagan? What do you mean by that statement? I am very fond of him and his books.

I like him, too, and his books were one of the major factors in my looking into planetary geology while a student. What I mean by the statement is that there are a lot of people who would like to live as he did -- be a professor (presumably a tenured one), make the jump to popular science and earn big bucks writing books. "Space" is the tool to bring that about -- nobody knows much about it; it's very photogenic; and it's so big, pretty much anything one says about it will be applicable to some part of it, however obscure that part may be, so one can always count on being right, as well as respected.

In short, a lot of people would like to earn a good living just talking and writing about space, and there just aren't enough positions available for all of them, so the field must be widened. Thus the thread of self-interest underlies much of the "gee whiz" stuff one hears so much of these days (one key factor in widening the field is to broaden the demand for it).

But it really has little to do with actually going OUT THERE, as the Apollo program did. (By the way, back in those days, I was an avid supporter of the OUT THERE crowd, but was also very glad to see Columbia touch down and the shuttle era begin.)

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
well i was thinking truly catastrophic actually. california falling into the ocean isnt going to kill us all and stop us going out into space.

Well, actually everything west of the SA fault is going to slide up towards Washington State, as so many Californians already have And it will take a very long time. But any big jolt on the way there could happen in a few minutes, and that would be a tragedy for California and the United States. Again, I know you mean well, but your statement is another wholly unintended, yet relevant, example of how "eyes on the skies" can make great things on Earth look awfully small and inconsequential, even the destruction of so many lives and so much property.

an asteroid the size of connecticut would. and as someone with "geologic training" Im sure you are aware that the earth goes through "normal" periodic extinction events every few hundred million years or so. like clock work. ask the dinosaurs.

There's a saying to the effect, if you like sausage, don't watch it being made. Something similar could be said about scientific hypotheses: if you want to believe any of them, don't watch how people actually think them up. You won't truly believe in any of them. You will, however, begin to think, so that's all right.

Found a nice one-stop site this morning on mass extincitions.

Anyway, there are alternatives to just about any mass-extinction hypothesis; the alternative to the "catastrophe" hypothesis, with particular reference to the extinction at the end of the Cretaceous period (the dinosaurs, and many other species as well), has been proposed by a heavy-set white scientific gentleman with a beard whose name I can't remember, though it was mentioned in "Jurassic Park": disease killed 'em off. He's come up with a few more, too; his main interest seems to be in pointing out that we don't actually know anything about it. It happened a long time ago and the geologic and fossil records are incomplete.

It's relevant, this discussion of Earth's deep past, because in some respects our exploration of it can be compared to that of deep space. Where we have come from can give us valuable insight into where we are going. Only we have more to go on here. And still we don't know very much, and much of what we do know turns out to be incorrect (just ask the folks who used to believe that continents were static and mountain formation had to do with vertical movements, as would seem obvious enough, rather than horizontal movements, as has been proven).

Give us an immediate goal -- beat the Russians to the moon, for instance -- and we'll do it without hesitation. But ask us to bridge the unbridgeable gap between the cold, stark and beautiful reality above our heads and, say, "Star Trek: The Next Generation," and you'll have a very hard time selling it.

[Dunadan]

Apologies for butting in halfway, but I've been away.

Originally posted by Draken
However, but for the NASA-funded investment in developing Apollo's on board computers, we would probably still be waiting for the internet to come along so we could have this conversation!

The internet protocol was developed on ARPANET, which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency. http came along because some Swiss particle physicists wanted to share their research documents. I'm sure some NASA money was spent on computers, and may even have led to some useful inventions, but you can't lay the internet at its feet!

It strikes me that there's a lot of myths about exactly what the benefits of the space programmes are. Does anyone actually know what these wonderful "off-shoot" technologies actually are?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
I like him, too, and his books were one of the major factors in my looking into planetary geology while a student.

I really hate name dropping but I should say here that Sagan was a proffesor at my alma mater and although he really only held classes for a small number of high level grad students he did make a lecture or two to my freshman Astronomy 101 class which simply blew my mind. God its Carl Sagan right there! Giving us a lecture!!

But anyway...

Well, actually everything west of the SA fault is going to slide up towards Washington State, as so many Californians already have And it will take a very long time.

Yes. Sorry for using the old "fall into the sea" reference which is of course not correct at all but it sounds better when you are talking about disasters. And anyway when rich San Franciscans suddenly find they are neighbors with loud rude Los Angelians (which is what will happen essentially) they will consider that tantamount to falling into the sea. San Franciscans take their real estate seriously.

Again, I know you mean well, but your statement is another wholly unintended, yet relevant, example of how "eyes on the skies" can make great things on Earth look awfully small and inconsequential, even the destruction of so many lives and so much property.

Oh dont worry I can be a touchy feely guy when i need to be. But I dont think focusing on space makes you think any less of an earthquake really. earth quakes are bad news for earthlings. But I just like to put things in perspective. In the grand scheme of things its almost a non event. But its still a huge tragedy if you lose a loved one in it. Just like its a huge tradgedy for the ants when a pebble lands on their ant hill.

Anyway, there are alternatives to just about any mass-extinction hypothesis; the alternative to the "catastrophe" hypothesis, with particular reference to the extinction at the end of the Cretaceous period (the dinosaurs, and many other species as well)... [is that] disease killed 'em off. [And that] we don't actually know anything about it. It happened a long time ago and the geologic and fossil records are incomplete.

cool segue! This is a fun topic too. and i disagree that theres little evidence for the Cretaceous/Tertiary extinction event. I mean we can find an impact crater of 300 km diameter right off the yucatan peninsula. we find this clear clean layer of irridium deposited right at THAT particular point (and irridium only comes from outerspace pretty much) and its locally maximized but its also found as far away as Denmark and New Zealand. So what ever did that was HUGE. We find shocked quartz all over the place in texas a sign of massive sudden heated force on rocks. We find microtektites in massive quantities as well (super heated glass like rock made from sudden enormous force and heat impact events. Imagine a rock suddenly being melted like hot butter). And ALL of this stuff just happens to date nicely to about 65 million years ago. Which also happens to correspond to the end of the Cretaceous and the end of the dinosaurs. Coincidence?

Now Im sure disease was rampant after this event of course and Im sure it killed lots of life forms but I think it was just a secondary effect of the impact itself. If you lose sunlight for 10 years yer gonna get sicker more often. And if it was only disease then it wouldnt explain why something like 85% of the species on the planet died off. We are talking everything from algea and plankton to snails and fish to the biggest dinosaurs. It didnt descriminate. Luckily a few primitive mammals survived the nuclear winter and creeped out to take over the world themselves. And here we are!

Give us an immediate goal -- beat the Russians to the moon, for instance -- and we'll do it without hesitation. But ask us to bridge the unbridgeable gap between the cold, stark and beautiful reality above our heads and, say, "Star Trek: The Next Generation," and you'll have a very hard time selling it.

ok how about beat the russians to mars. then beat them to europa. then beat them out of the solar system. oh wait the russions are broke now. ok how about the chinese. or the europians. if thats what it takes then ok. i think its a silly approach but hey humans like competition so maybe thats the way to go. but humanity isnt going to lose its natural drive to explore just because theres no challenge in the 21st century. that silly. we live short insignificant lives. space will still be there for us when we are finally ready. and we will SPREAD into space. not move FROM earth TO space. i keep having to go back to that it seems.

[Admiral Ackbar]

Nobody asnwered the question posted above: What are the direct benefits the space program has given us? I'm not saying its a total waste, but perhaps we should focus on the more theoretical aspects of discovery. Missions that fail because of a simple mistake and cost millions are horribly wasteful. Missions that send old equipment into space for practically useless tests are wasteful. If NASA takes some initiative and makes some daring missions that will yield interesting results, then sure, by all means. We DO have to get off this rock in awhile anyway. But for the past (?) NASA hasn't been doing much even though it's spending alot.

[Draken]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Apologies for butting in halfway, but I've been away.


The internet protocol was developed on ARPANET, which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency. http came along because some Swiss particle physicists wanted to share their research documents. I'm sure some NASA money was spent on computers, and may even have led to some useful inventions, but you can't lay the internet at its feet!

It strikes me that there's a lot of myths about exactly what the benefits of the space programmes are. Does anyone actually know what these wonderful "off-shoot" technologies actually are?

What I meant was that the Apollo programme poured a lot of money into some fledgeling computing technologies, particularly the component miniaturisation that now allows us to sit with a fair degree of computing power on our desks. The internet would not have happened (or would be pretty pointless) without that.

I don't think this is a controversial view at all, see:

http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=1494/.../0101hc001.htm

or

http://hallinternet.com/net_history_trends/179.shtml

for instance.

I'm not saying we wouldn't have eventually got there anyway, obviously we would have (probably driven by military research) but all the same Apollo definitely accelerated the process.

[Draken]

And besides why pick on space?

For instance:

US Government funding of NASA in 2003: about $15 billion
US spending on cosmetics in 2001 (couldn't find anything more recent!): about $44 billion


One less lipstick per month girls and we'll be in hyperspace in no time!

[Khamûl]

How about these for benefits of the space shuttle program?

3-D BIOTECHNOLOGY

Developed for Space Shuttle medical research, a rotating cell-culture device simulates the microgravity of space. This allows researchers to grow cells in three dimensions. The device may one day help researchers find cures for dangerous infectious diseases and offer alternatives to patients who need organ transplant surgery.

ARTIFICIAL HEART

Technology used in Space Shuttle fuel pumps led to the development of a miniaturized ventricular-assist pump by NASA and renowned heart surgeon Dr. Michael DeBakey. The tiny pump, a mere two inches long, one inch in diameter, and weighing less than four ounces, is currently undergoing clinical trials in Europe, where it has been successfully implanted into more than 20 people.

BLOOD SERUM RESEARCH

An astronaut's body, once free of gravity's pull, experiences a redistribution of body fluids that can lead to a decrease in the number of red blood cells and produce a form of space anemia. Monitoring and evaluating blood serum was required to understand these phenomena. However, existing blood-analysis technology required the use of a centrifugation technology that was not practical in space. NASA developed new technologies for the collection and real-time analysis of blood as well as other bodily fluids without the need for centrifugation.

ARTIFICIAL LIMBS

Responding to a request from the orthopedic-appliance industry, NASA recommended that the foam insulation used to protect the Shuttle's external tank replace the heavy, fragile plaster used to produce master molds for prosthetics. The new material is light, virtually indestructible, and easy to ship and store.

LIFESAVING LIGHT

Special lighting technology developed for plant-growth experiments on Space Shuttle missions is now used to treat brain tumors in children. Doctors at the Medical College of Wisconsin in Milwaukee use light-emitting diodes in a treatment called photodynamic therapy, a form of chemotherapy, to kill cancerous tumors.

TAKING TEMPERATURES

Infrared sensors developed to remotely measure the temperature of distant stars and planets for the Space Shuttle program led to the development of the hand-held optical sensor thermometer. Placed inside the ear canal, the thermometer provides an accurate reading in two seconds or less.

BETTER BALANCE

Devices built to measure the equilibrium of Space Shuttle astronauts when they return from space are now widely used by major medical centers to diagnose and treat patients suffering head injury, stroke, chronic dizziness and disorders of the central nervous system.

FASTER DIAGNOSTICS

NASA technology was used to create a compact laboratory instrument for hospitals and doctor offices. This device quickly analyzes blood, accomplishing in 30 seconds what once took 20 minutes with conventional equipment.

LAND MINE REMOVAL

The same rocket fuel that helps launch the Space Shuttle is now being used to save lives--by destroying land mines. A flare device, using leftover fuel donated by NASA, is placed next to the uncovered land mine and is ignited from a safe distance using a battery-triggered electric match. The explosive burns away, disabling the mine and rendering it harmless.

TRACKING VEHICLES ON EARTH

Tracking information originally used for Space Shuttle missions now helps track vehicles here on the ground. This commercial spin-off allows vehicles to transmit a signal back to a home base. Many cities today use the software to track and reassign emergency and public works vehicles. The technology also is used by vehicle fleet operations, such as taxis, armored cars and vehicles carrying hazardous cargo.

RESCUE 911

Rescue squads have a new extrication tool to help remove accident victims from wrecked vehicles. The hand-held device requires no auxiliary power systems or cumbersome hoses and is 70 percent cheaper than previous rescue equipment. The cutter uses a miniature version of the explosive charges that separate devices on the Space Shuttle.

BYTE OUT OF CRIME

Image-processing technology used to analyze Space Shuttle launch videos and to study meteorological images also helps law enforcement agencies improve crime-solving videos. The technology removes defects due to image jitter, image rotation and image zoom in video sequences. The technology also may be useful for medical imaging, scientific applications and home video.

GAS GAUGES

A gas leak-detection system, originally developed to monitor the Shuttle's hydrogen propulsion system, is now being used by the Ford Motor Company in the production of a natural gas-powered car.

to be continued...

[Khamûl]

continued...

PRODUCT LABELING

NASA needs to identify, track, and keep records on each of the thousands of heat-shield tiles on the Space Shuttle. This required a labeling system that could be put on ceramic material and withstand the rigors of space travel to be readable after a flight. NASA developed high data-density, two-dimensional, machine-readable symbol technology used to mark individual tiles. This novel method of labeling products with invisible and virtually indestructible markings can be used on electronic parts, pharmaceuticals and livestock--in fact on just about anything.

KEEP COOL UNDER FIRE

Materials from the Space Shuttle thermal protection system are used on NASCAR racing cars to protect drivers from the extreme heat generated by the engines. This same material is also used to protect firefighters.

FIRE RESISTANT FOAM

A unique foam developed for Space Shuttle thermal insulation and packing is now being used as thermal and acoustical insulation in aerospace, marine and industrial products. Since it's also fire resistant, it's being used as well for fire barriers, packaging and other applications requiring either high-temperature or very low-temperature insulation in critical environments. For example, use of these foam products by airframe manufacturers such as Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, and Airbus provides major weight savings, while retaining good thermal and acoustical properties in the various products.

FIRE SIGHTING

A sensitive, gas infrared camera, used by NASA observers to monitor the blazing plumes from the Space Shuttle's solid rocket boosters is also capable of scanning for fires. Firefighters use this hand-held camera to pinpoint the hotspots of wildfires that rage out of control.

JEWELER'S GEM

Jewelers no longer have to worry about inhaling dangerous asbestos fibers from the blocks they use as soldering bases. Space Shuttle heat-shield tiles offer jewelers a safer soldering base with temperature resistance far beyond the 1,400 degrees Fahrenheit generated by the jeweler's torch.

JET STRIPPING

NASA developed a tool that uses powerful jet streams of water to strip paint and primer from the Space Shuttle's solid rocket boosters. A commercial version of this water jet is now used to treat turbine-engine components, airframe components, large aerospace hardware, ships and other mechanical devices, using only pure water. No hazardous chemicals are needed.

QUICK FIT FASTENERS

Fastening items in space is a difficult task. A Virginia company developed a fastener that can be pushed on, rather than turned. These quick-connect fasteners are flexible and strong, and have been used by NASA astronauts since 1989. The product is now in use by firefighters and nuclear power-plant repair technicians, and has other commercial applications.

COMPUTER JOYSTICKS

Computer games can now be played with all the precision and sensitivity needed for a safe and soft Space Shuttle touchdown. A game-controlling joystick for personal computer-based entertainment systems was modeled after controls used in shuttle simulators. Astronauts used the joystick to practice runway landings and orbit maneuvering.

TOYS FOR TOTS

Already successful with its Nerf toy products, Hasbro, Inc. wanted to design a toy glider that a child could fly. Benefiting from NASA wind-tunnel and aerodynamic expertise used in the Space Shuttle program, Hasbro improved the flying distances and loop-to-loop stunts of its toy gliders.

SLICK PRODUCTS

A lubricant used on the transporter that carries a Space Shuttle to the launch pad has resulted in a commercial penetrating-spray lube, which is used for rust prevention and loosening corroded nuts. It's also a cleaner and lubricant for guns and fishing reels, and can be used to reduce engine friction.

Source: "Shuttle Program Results in Down-To-Earth Technology Discoveries" NASA - October 11, 2000


Besides, how can you argue against a program that gave us Tang?

[Insidious Rex]

hmmm Im having dejavu all over again.....

[Khamûl]

Yeah, I know, but I had the information handy.