Eowyn loves Wormtongue? - Page 3

***azalea*** · 01-06-2003, 01:22 PM

I'm going to repeat myself here. The tear was for Eowyn. Saruman says leave none alive. It was well est. beforehand that Grima lusted after Eowyn, and if none are left alive, that means her, too.
And Grima DID want her. It was not mocking, but it was said in a mock tone, because he did not feel at all sorry that Theodred had died. This seemed to give him a "legitimate" avenue to the throne of Rohan, as Eomer was banished. Thus taking him closer to his goal of having her. He was simply using words of mock pity to work his spell on her. But that is different than mocking her. She of course despised him, but as everyone has said, it's her mindset combined w/ his arts that allow that brief lapse in her hatred of him.

edit: And for the love of Pete, how did Legolas' hair color make its way into yet another thread?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-06-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

And for the love of Pete, how did Legolas' hair color make its way into yet another thread?

Good question.

eowyngirl14 · 01-06-2003, 05:00 PM

I still don't think that tear was well explained... Aaahhh! Legolas is taking over the thread!

Artanis · 01-06-2003, 05:14 PM

Grima Wormtongue has every reason to shed a tear: He was expelled from Rohan, and he has just learned that Sarumann has betrayed him and that his people will all be slain, including Eowyn, the promised reward and his object of desire.

Dúnedain · 01-06-2003, 06:18 PM

I think you can also take the tear a bit farther and combined with the other things said which I agree are part of it, however I think he also shed a tear of redemption there as well, as in thinking the army was beautiful and that he would exact his revenge against Rohan and losing the love of his life through the wonderous army. I think all of those things combine into the tear, I don't think you can cut it short and say, "Yes it is because he loves Eowyn and she will now die", no, it is everything culminated together, joy, sadness, revenge, pity, etc...

Dolenloteiel · 01-06-2003, 06:38 PM

I totally agree with Azalea. His tear was for her. He knew he could not have her, and that made him sad. (Rightly so, Eowyn is a noble and justly beautiful woman) Wormtongue knew she would die, but still he lusted after something he could never have. His words are poison, his intentions are evil, and bravo Eomer for telling him off in the movie!!! (although he himself is exiled, poop

)

Evenstar1400 · 01-06-2003, 06:49 PM

I thought the part with Eowyn and Wormtounge was freaky. she got all like maybe im enjoying this. it was just wrong.

eowyngirl14 · 01-06-2003, 08:18 PM

okay... I sorta get Grima's tear now!

I agree with Evenstar1400!

Sminty_Smeagol · 01-06-2003, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Grima Wormtongue has every reason to shed a tear:...Sarumann has betrayed him and that his people will all be slain, including Eowyn, the promised reward and his object of desire.

Saruman betrayed him? D.o

Artanis · 01-07-2003, 03:02 AM

He was promised to get Eowyn as a reward.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 01-07-2003, 03:10 AM

But, in a way, Grima also failed Saruman. He was supposed to stay with Theoden and make sure he stayed in his half-conscious, possessed (according to movie) state. Instead, he 'allowed' Gandalf to come and release Theoden from Saruman's grasp, thus failing his assignment, right? He didn't do everything according to orders, so he doesn't get the promised reward. Neh?

Artanis · 01-07-2003, 03:21 AM

Well I suppose you could see it that way, but I don't think Sarumann would have left Eowyn alive even if Grima had succeeded.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 01-07-2003, 03:33 AM

Probably not. Tricky guy, that Saruman

Tawfret Melee · 01-07-2003, 05:47 AM

I love all of your interpretations about that one tear! I also just attributed it to the wind and the noise... and usually I'm reading things into scenes REALLY quick!

Now I'll have to go see the Two Towers again... thanks all!

Oh and for the record, Eowyn is INDEED awesome!

unregistered · 01-07-2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnadain
I think you can also take the tear a bit farther and combined with the other things said which I agree are part of it, however I think he also shed a tear of redemption there as well, as in thinking the army was beautiful and that he would exact his revenge against Rohan and losing the love of his life through the wonderous army. I think all of those things combine into the tear, I don't think you can cut it short and say, "Yes it is because he loves Eowyn and she will now die", no, it is everything culminated together, joy, sadness, revenge, pity, etc...

Exactly my thoughts

Huan · 01-07-2003, 03:51 PM

As for Grima's tear, I feel so dumb! That tear has been a total mystery to me since seeing it the first time, and it never crossed my mind that it was for Eowyn. Of course! I still think the tear is very ambiguous, though, and couuld represent many other things as well. It could mean, as others have said, that faced with the real possibility of total war, he finally shares some human compassion for the intended victims of this unprecedented army. But actually, I had been seeing it differently, that the tear in fact enhances Grima's vileness: he'd never dreamt that such an army could ever be assembled, and the sight of it is overwhelmingly wonderful to the nasty snake. Or maybe just all of the above.

***azalea*** · 01-07-2003, 04:27 PM

Grima is completely selfish, and I don't think a villian such as he (him?) would shed a tear of remorse for anything but the loss of his desired "object." I also don't think he would be the emotional type of guy to shed a tear of happiness or wonder at that army. He would more likely gawk in awe and amazement, but really, it is my belief that it is for nothing more than the loss of the fair Eowyn. I think it more likely if it is to be interpreted otherwise that it be for the loss of his people than the joy of seeing that army, though.

As for doing his job, he succeeded very well! How could he have stopped Gandalf anyway? His power would have been NO match in any case. He managed to keep Theoden incapacitated for a long time, time enough for Rohan to be flanked by evil and for them to be caught completely unprepared to fight the vast army that Saruman was able to assemble in that time. So at that point he was just maintaining the status quo. Things turned out differently than they had planned, but they still thought they'd succeed. Luckily they did not!

eowyngirl14 · 01-07-2003, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
He was promised to get Eowyn as a reward.

Where are you all getting that from? If it was in the book, I must haev missed it!

Eruviel Greenleaf · 01-07-2003, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eowyngirl14
Where are you all getting that from? If it was in the book, I must haev missed it!

In the movie, there is the part right before Eomer is banished that he is accusing Grima of being Saruman's spy, and he says something like, "too long have your eyes dwelt upon my sister. . ."

It's definitely in the book, but I can't come up with a quote right now.

***azalea*** · 01-07-2003, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eowyngirl14
Where are you all getting that from? If it was in the book, I must haev missed it!

Look in Book 3, ch.=The King of the Golden Hall. I posted about it on page 2 of this thread.

01-06-2003, 05:00 PM	#43
eowyngirl14 i don't know what i am talking about either, so don't ask Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,353	I still don't think that tear was well explained... Aaahhh! Legolas is taking over the thread! __________________ 'The coming of dawn is ever the hope to the heart of men' -Aragorn 'Then I will die as one of them' -Aragorn TTT movie “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety” - Benjamin Franklin arms are made for hugging avatar from the avatar shop! made by Eowyn, Lady of Rohan

01-06-2003, 05:14 PM	#44
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Grima Wormtongue has every reason to shed a tear: He was expelled from Rohan, and he has just learned that Sarumann has betrayed him and that his people will all be slain, including Eowyn, the promised reward and his object of desire. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-06-2003, 06:38 PM	#46
Dolenloteiel I elenfea Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Somewhere in the chaos between the first and second ages! (Actually, CO) Posts: 556	I totally agree with Azalea. His tear was for her. He knew he could not have her, and that made him sad. (Rightly so, Eowyn is a noble and justly beautiful woman) Wormtongue knew she would die, but still he lusted after something he could never have. His words are poison, his intentions are evil, and bravo Eomer for telling him off in the movie!!! (although he himself is exiled, poop ) __________________ "Middle Earth is a real place. And it is New Zealand." Sir Ian McKellan **************************** QUESTION AUTHORITY Ask me anything ************************** "I have not failed, I've only found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison ************************** Visit Tolkien RP Site! Need members, RP all three Ages! (UNDER CONSTRUCTION) http://elvellon.suddenlaunch2.com **************************** "Yay, I can hear the voices in my head again!

01-06-2003, 06:49 PM	#47
Evenstar1400 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In the inner depths of my lair. Posts: 421	I thought the part with Eowyn and Wormtounge was freaky. she got all like maybe im enjoying this. it was just wrong. __________________ Treebeard: Hmm, you look like hobbits, smell like hobbits, feel like hobbits and sound like hobbits. You must be orcs!

01-06-2003, 08:18 PM	#48
eowyngirl14 i don't know what i am talking about either, so don't ask Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,353	okay... I sorta get Grima's tear now! I agree with Evenstar1400! __________________ 'The coming of dawn is ever the hope to the heart of men' -Aragorn 'Then I will die as one of them' -Aragorn TTT movie “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety” - Benjamin Franklin arms are made for hugging avatar from the avatar shop! made by Eowyn, Lady of Rohan

01-06-2003, 01:22 PM	#41
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I'm going to repeat myself here. The tear was for Eowyn. Saruman says leave none alive. It was well est. beforehand that Grima lusted after Eowyn, and if none are left alive, that means her, too. And Grima DID want her. It was not mocking, but it was said in a mock tone, because he did not feel at all sorry that Theodred had died. This seemed to give him a "legitimate" avenue to the throne of Rohan, as Eomer was banished. Thus taking him closer to his goal of having her. He was simply using words of mock pity to work his spell on her. But that is different than mocking her. She of course despised him, but as everyone has said, it's her mindset combined w/ his arts that allow that brief lapse in her hatred of him. edit: And for the love of Pete, how did Legolas' hair color make its way into yet another thread?

01-06-2003, 06:18 PM	#45
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	I think you can also take the tear a bit farther and combined with the other things said which I agree are part of it, however I think he also shed a tear of redemption there as well, as in thinking the army was beautiful and that he would exact his revenge against Rohan and losing the love of his life through the wonderous army. I think all of those things combine into the tear, I don't think you can cut it short and say, "Yes it is because he loves Eowyn and she will now die", no, it is everything culminated together, joy, sadness, revenge, pity, etc...

01-07-2003, 03:02 AM	#50
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	He was promised to get Eowyn as a reward. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-07-2003, 03:10 AM	#51
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	But, in a way, Grima also failed Saruman. He was supposed to stay with Theoden and make sure he stayed in his half-conscious, possessed (according to movie) state. Instead, he 'allowed' Gandalf to come and release Theoden from Saruman's grasp, thus failing his assignment, right? He didn't do everything according to orders, so he doesn't get the promised reward. Neh? __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

01-07-2003, 03:21 AM	#52
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Well I suppose you could see it that way, but I don't think Sarumann would have left Eowyn alive even if Grima had succeeded. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-07-2003, 03:33 AM	#53
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	Probably not. Tricky guy, that Saruman __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

01-07-2003, 05:47 AM	#54
Tawfret Melee Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 9	I love all of your interpretations about that one tear! I also just attributed it to the wind and the noise... and usually I'm reading things into scenes REALLY quick! Now I'll have to go see the Two Towers again... thanks all! Oh and for the record, Eowyn is INDEED awesome!

01-07-2003, 03:51 PM	#56
Huan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Oxford, MS Posts: 274	As for Grima's tear, I feel so dumb! That tear has been a total mystery to me since seeing it the first time, and it never crossed my mind that it was for Eowyn. Of course! I still think the tear is very ambiguous, though, and couuld represent many other things as well. It could mean, as others have said, that faced with the real possibility of total war, he finally shares some human compassion for the intended victims of this unprecedented army. But actually, I had been seeing it differently, that the tear in fact enhances Grima's vileness: he'd never dreamt that such an army could ever be assembled, and the sight of it is overwhelmingly wonderful to the nasty snake. Or maybe just all of the above.

01-07-2003, 04:27 PM	#57
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Grima is completely selfish, and I don't think a villian such as he (him?) would shed a tear of remorse for anything but the loss of his desired "object." I also don't think he would be the emotional type of guy to shed a tear of happiness or wonder at that army. He would more likely gawk in awe and amazement, but really, it is my belief that it is for nothing more than the loss of the fair Eowyn. I think it more likely if it is to be interpreted otherwise that it be for the loss of his people than the joy of seeing that army, though. As for doing his job, he succeeded very well! How could he have stopped Gandalf anyway? His power would have been NO match in any case. He managed to keep Theoden incapacitated for a long time, time enough for Rohan to be flanked by evil and for them to be caught completely unprepared to fight the vast army that Saruman was able to assemble in that time. So at that point he was just maintaining the status quo. Things turned out differently than they had planned, but they still thought they'd succeed. Luckily they did not!

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