Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I have BoLT part 2 and never really enjoyed it very much, I think because of all the name changes (Tinwelint and Gwendeling for Thingol and Melian?? ugh...) Also, after reading all of Michael Martinez's comments about BoLT belonging to a different mythology, I didn't really go back to it - it is just too different. (What do you think, SGH?)

Besides LOTR and the Sil, I have Unfinished Tales and Morgoth's Ring (which I got because I had heard about the Athrabeth), and like them both a lot. I don't know which would be next on my wish list - perhaps War of the Jewels? Would you give me your recommendation, please, SGH?

AND ... Just to stay with the thread's topic - The only thing that I don't like about the Athrabeth is the image of Aegnor with his hair standing up! Somewhere Tolkien writes that his hair resembled a flame (his name meant Sharp Flame, or something like that - don't have reference handy) in both color and in that it stood up like a flame! Not a good mental image, IMHO. Oh well, no one's perfect!

I definately found the BoLTs to be boring. I did enjoy very much the "Lay of Lethien" in "The Lays of Beleriand" and that is part of the old mythology.

If the Silmarillion has been your cup of tea so to speak and you have enjoyed Morgoth's Ring, then I highly recommend your next attempt be War of the Jewels, and then The Peoples of Middle-earth. Remember that War of the Jewels and Morgoth's Ring are part one and two of the Later Silmarillion.

Now, about Aegnor's hair. there is only one reference in the Athrabeth made about his hair, and that is when Andreth says to Finrod: "Will he be there, tall and bright with the wind in his hair?"
I think we need to remember that Finrod, Galadriel, Aegnor and Angrod had the golden hair of the Vanyar if memory serves me correctly. So I don't think Aegnor had a head of flames.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
If the Silmarillion has been your cup of tea so to speak and you have enjoyed Morgoth's Ring, then I highly recommend your next attempt be War of the Jewels, and then The Peoples of Middle-earth. Remember that War of the Jewels and Morgoth's Ring are part one and two of the Later Silmarillion.

OK, War of the Jewels is now on the top of my Christmas list!

Now, about Aegnor's hair. there is only one reference in the Athrabeth made about his hair, and that is when Andreth says to Finrod: "Will he be there, tall and bright with the wind in his hair?"
I think we need to remember that Finrod, Galadriel, Aegnor and Angrod had the golden hair of the Vanyar if memory serves me correctly. So I don't think Aegnor had a head of flames.

Was that just some crazy dream I had after a long day, or did I really read that somewhere? I have this memory of reading it in some appendix and thinking he needed some industrial-strength hair gel! Now I'll have to search for it... unfortunately, names in footnotes and appendicies aren't indexed, just names in the main text.

[Sister Golden Hair]

"Originally posted by Rian There are also many other goodies in Morgoth's Ring besides this story. I especially like "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar", where you can learn fun things like the elves exchanged silver rings when they became betrothed, then returned them and exchanged gold rings when they were wed (and wore them upon the index finger of the right hand).

I thought this was interesting. Did you know that when the Eldar wed, their marriage was sealed by a physical joining? Isn't that romantic? Source- "Laws and Customs of the Eldar"

[Rían]

Yes, I like that thought, too. I think Tolkien definitely had a romantic side! Have you read much about how he and his wife met? Also, that he put "Luthien" on her tombstone (I wonder if he put "Beren" on his?) There are some touching letters on this - letters 340 and 332 - from 340:

"I have at last got busy about Mummy's grave ... The inscription I should like is: Edith Mary Tolkien, 1889-1971, Luthien : brief and jejune, except for Luthien, which says for me more than a multitude of words: for she was (and knew she was) my Luthien."

Still working on the elusive (and possibly imaginary!) Aegnor hair description ....

Hey, we're on our third page on this thread - can you believe it?
Haven't heard from Artanis for awhile - her books probably came in and she is happily immersed in them!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, I like that thought, too. I think Tolkien definitely had a romantic side! Have you read much about how he and his wife met? Also, that he put "Luthien" on her tombstone (I wonder if he put "Beren" on his?) There are some touching letters on this - letters 340 and 332 - from 340:

Still working on the elusive (and possibly imaginary!) Aegnor hair description ....

Hey, we're on our third page on this thread - can you believe it?
Haven't heard from Artanis for awhile - her books probably came in and she is happily immersed in them!

I know that Tolkien always put him and his wife in the role of Beren and Luthien. When Edith died he did put Luthien on her headstone, but when he died, his children had Beren put on his. Not sure, but I think if you do a search that you will find a thread where someone posted a photo of their grave sights.

Let me know when you find that about Aegnor's hair.

I am very surprised that this thread has become this long. I don't think there are a lot of folks that have read the HoMe. I wasn't expecting it to get much attention as you know from my opening post. It's great. thanks again for bringing it back.

[Ñólendil]

Certainly Aegnor was golden-haired. All of Finarfin's children were, but Aegnor's hair is specifically said to be of this color in The Shibboleth of Fëanor (Peoples of Middle-earth). Though, I recall there was something peculiar about it, like standing on end when he was angry, making the appearance of flames.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Certainly Aegnor was golden-haired. All of Finarfin's children were, but Aegnor's hair is specifically said to be of this color in The Shibboleth of Fëanor (Peoples of Middle-earth). Though, I recall there was something peculiar about it, like standing on end when he was angry, making the appearance of flames.

Are you serious Dylan?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by R?an
Haven't heard from Artanis for awhile - her books probably came in and she is happily immersed in them!

They came on Friday! And I.ve been away during the weekend. But I've read all of the Athrabeth now, and it was a lovely story though sad, and some of it were difficult to grasp, at least during the first reading. The sad part was Andreth's bitterness and her total lack of hope for herself and her kin. Finrod at least had trust in Eru.

Isn't that lovely writing? It seems to be a major change of thought for Finrod, also - now he seems to think that elves and men will be together after the end of Arda. Thoughts? Comments?

Gives ya shivers doesn't it? It was of course Finrod's hope that Elves and Men would be together in the end. His idea was that Men would be the lordly ones and Elves would be where Men were in Arda Marred. A trading of places as it were. That is what he means I think at the end when he says to Andreth, "You are not for Arda" meaning "Arda Marred" "Whereever you go, may you find light. Await us there, my brother and me" "Arda Remade" And of course, Finrod being the insightful fellow that he was, Foresaw Aegnor's, Andreth's and his own deaths. Very thought provoking.

I got the impression that it is during this conversation with Andreth Finrod gains new hope of a life for the Elves in Arda Remade. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it was hard to follow the thoughts behind the spoken sentences. Andreth believes that the true nature of Men is not to be subject to death. From this Finrod deduces that the spirit of Men, the indweller, have the power to take the body, or housing, out of Ea, thus healing Arda, or part of it, from the Marring, and further, releasing Arda from the limits that were set during the Music of the Ainur. Which again means that the existence of the Elves are not longer limited to the existence of Arda Marred. And in Arda Remade Men would be the lordly ones because in opposition to the Elves Men were designed to live there, their fear had come home. While the Elves would be remembering the past, their life in Arda as it was, their true home.

It was interesting to see how Andreth and Finrod both gain new insight by their conversation. These two friends, an Elf and a woman, are starting out their debate with different views and beliefs concerning death and the fate of their kindreds. Still they are able to put together their knowledge and wisdom and learn from each other. Very uplifting.

[Rían]

Glad to see you back, Artanis! Congrats on your book arrival - I'm jealous.

While you're reading, let me enlist your help with the great flame hair mystery (see last several posts about Aegnor's hair). Let me know if you find it!

Let me think a bit about your post - this weekend too busy for anything much but quick comments.

[Ñólendil]

Are you serious Dylan?

Yes, though I don't doubt my memory is inaccurate.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
They came on Friday! And I.ve been away during the weekend. But I've read all of the Athrabeth now, and it was a lovely story though sad, and some of it were difficult to grasp, at least during the first reading. The sad part was Andreth's bitterness and her total lack of hope for herself and her kin. Finrod at least had trust in Eru.

I am so happy for you. There is much to be offered in this book.

We must remember I think that Finrod did have more faith then Andreth because he had come from Valinor. Andreth consistantly throughout their debate doubts Eru and the Valar which Finrod finds very disturbing.

I got the impression that it is during this conversation with Andreth Finrod gains new hope of a life for the Elves in Arda Remade. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it was hard to follow the thoughts behind the spoken sentences. Andreth believes that the true nature of Men is not to be subject to death.

This is where he says that at first he believed that this belief was born from envy of the Elves. He comes to realize that perhaps Men did something wrong that angered Eru. That maybe what had started out as a gift was now a curse. This is when he asks her " What did ye do ye men out there to anger Eru?" Not exact.

It was interesting to see how Andreth and Finrod both gain new insight by their conversation. These two friends, an Elf and a woman, are starting out their debate with different views and beliefs concerning death and the fate of their kindreds. Still they are able to put together their knowledge and wisdom and learn from each other. Very uplifting. [/B]

I am not so sure that happens. I don't think Andreth ever really accepts Finrod's view on their differences and the envy and regret seems to remain by the end. She seems to understand what he is saying, but does she agree?

[Rían]

**earlier today**"honey, could you take the boys and do something manly while I take our daughter out to get some earrings?" **on the way to earring store** "oh look, daughter-of-mine, we're driving right past the Largest Bookstore In Our Area - do you mind if Mommy just pops in for a sec?" **sound of tires squealing as Mommy lays down some rubber in the parking lot** "hmm, BoLT 1, BoLT2, ... DRAT! no Peoples of Middle Earth! Now I can't check the hair reference that Ñólendil referred to!" **gets home ** Daddy - "let me see your new earrings, honey!" ** Mommy's jaw drops as she realizes she FORGOT TO GET EARRINGS!! **
(last part is joke - I got 3 pairs for her) The hair mystery continues, unless SGH or Artanis can look it up in the Shibboleth (SP?) of Feanor part of Peoples of Middle Earth. (Please convince me I'm not crazy!!)

Originally posted by Artanis
I got the impression that it is during this conversation with Andreth Finrod gains new hope of a life for the Elves in Arda Remade.

I though that, too - Finrod goes from this :

'Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. Beyond the day when he shall blow the mort, we have no certainty, no knowledge. And no one speaks to us of hope.'

to the lovely section at the end where he says he and his brother will see her again. Quite a change of opinion.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I am not so sure that happens. I don't think Andreth ever really accepts Finrod's view on their differences and the envy and regret seems to remain by the end. She seems to understand what he is saying, but does she agree?

I think you're probably right, but it is hard to tell from the text. Her envy and regret certainly seem to remain. From this :

"And what shall I remember? ... And when I go to what halls shall I come?"

I think she probably doesn't agree with Finrod at the time, but I can see her thinking things over after he's gone and coming around to his opinion. I hope so!

[Rían]

Artanis, are your books in English or Norwegian? (Your English is certainly excellent!) Do you know how much of Tolkien's work is translated into Norwegian?

What kind of Engineering are you in? (I peeked at your profile) I'm in radar (part-time consulting now, full-time before the kids)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
The hair mystery continues, unless SGH or Artanis can look it up in the Shibboleth (SP?) of Feanor part of Peoples of Middle Earth. (Please convince me I'm not crazy!!)

OK RÃ*an, you're not crazy Here is the passage from The Shibboleth:

Aika-nar- meant 'fell fire'. It was in part a 'prophetic' name, for he was renowned as one of the most valiant of the warriors, greatly feared by the Orcs: in wrath or battle the light of his eyes was like flame, though otherwise he was a generous and noble spirit. But in early youth the fiery light could be observed; while his hair was notable: golden like his brothers and sister, but strong and stiff, rising upon his head like flames.

There! The hair mystery is solved!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair This is where he says that at first he believed that this belief was born from envy of the Elves. He comes to realize that perhaps Men did something wrong that angered Eru. That maybe what had started out as a gift was now a curse. This is when he asks her " What did ye do ye men out there to anger Eru?" Not exact.

The fall of Men, which is the cause of Andreth's despair. She believes now, I think, that because of the fall and Eru's anger Men are also bound to the world like the Elves, and that death will bring everlasting darkness. Then Finrod speaks to her about hope, actually two forms of hope, Amdir and Estel, of which the former is grounded on knowledge and experience, and the latter is founded on trust. Andreth rejects both, but admits that some of the wise among Men believes in the entering of Eru into the world, and His healing of Men and Arda Marred. Finrod also believes in Eru's interference, free from the Music of the Ainur, since he can't imagine Eru letting Himself be "deprived of His own". This is the foundation of his Estel.

I am not so sure that happens. I don't think Andreth ever really accepts Finrod's view on their differences and the envy and regret seems to remain by the end. She seems to understand what he is saying, but does she agree?

I think you're right in that she doesn't agree about Arda Remade, and she has lost all hope. But I also think she learned that the Elves have their own sorrows and troubles, particularly concerning their fate on the end of Arda. She understands more of Elvish philosophy, which is a good thing in itself, even if she doesn't agree.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
There! The hair mystery is solved!

Thank you!! *tells nice men in white coats that they can go back to the funny farm without her* And now I remember how I came across the quote - I had heard about the Shibboleth from one of Michael Martinez' wonderful essays on Suite 101, so I went to the bookstore and read through it (in the process, coming across the hair thing). When this thread prompted the hair memory, I couldn't find it among my books at home because I don't own PoME, and I didn't associate it with the Shibboleth because that's about speaking patterns and associated problems. Thanks again, Ñólendil, for the reference! I would have NEVER though of it.

Tolkien must have come up with that idea late at night after a long day - I think it would have been nice to have flame colors throughout his golden hair, like nice bronze-y reds and oranges, but the standing-up part ... well, I guess Tolkien's writings aren't TOTALLY perfect (IMHO - but close!)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Artanis, are your books in English or Norwegian?

Now I have HoME 3-12, the Sil, UT and LoTR in English, and the Hobbit and LoTR in Norwegian.

(Your English is certainly excellent!)

Thank you, but I do have a good dictionary at hand. On some of my posts I have to work hard to find the right words to express myself. I know I would have posted far more if English were my native language.

Do you know how much of Tolkien's work is translated into Norwegian?

A quick search on the electronic bookstore reveales: The Hobbit (Hobbiten), UT (Ufullendte historier), LoTR (Ringenes herre), The Silmarillion, Roverandom (Rundtomrask), Father Christmas Letters (Brev fra Julenissen), Tree and leaf (Trær og blader), Smith of Wootton Major (Volund smed fra Store Skauby). Letters and HoME are not translated, as far as I know. The Norwegian market may be too small for the "heavier" stuff.

What kind of Engineering are you in? (I peeked at your profile) I'm in radar (part-time consulting now, full-time before the kids)

I'm a M.Sc. in Engineering Cybernetics, but at present I work solely with Software Engineering. My husband is a radar-guy, he is an employee in a company working with ground-penetrating radars.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Rian, I am so happy that the nice young men in their clean white coats are not going to take you away. I found the part in the Shibboleth of Feanor and was going to post it, but my stupid roadrunner was down all day and I couldn't get on line. When I did Artanis had beat me to it. I notice it said in his youth this was how he appeared. I wonder just how old he was in human years when he died. I wonder how old Finrod was in human years. I get the impression that neither were all that old in human or elven reckoning.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Rian, I am so happy that the nice young men in their clean white coats are not going to take you away.

Thanks! Me too! (I was starting to worry...)

I found the part in the Shibboleth of Feanor and was going to post it, but my stupid roadrunner was down all day and I couldn't get on line. When I did Artanis had beat me to it. I notice it said in his youth this was how he appeared. I wonder just how old he was in human years when he died. I wonder how old Finrod was in human years. I get the impression that neither were all that old in human or elven reckoning.

What's a roadrunner? (besides the bird - I've seen several out where we used to live, really funny looking birds!)

I'm checking Sil dates for another topic, so I'll try to look up those guys too.

Do you like the bronzy red/orange-mixed-in-with-golden hair idea? I think it would look pretty cool!