travilling ove seas

[Scatha]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
By "elves", Sister Golden Hair meant "Orks". I imagine this is what Artanis meant by typos.

Orks came from Men, but as I said, that's a whole 'nother topic. You can read about it in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring.

SGH, you wondered about Orks being around before Men. Not true Orks. What the Elves of the Water of Awakening saw were Úmaiar who had taken on twisted shapes of horror. The same words the primitive Kwendî used for them were later applied to the the true Orks made by Sauron after the Awakening of Men. (The idea was Melkor's, but Sauron is the one who achieved it, when Melkor was in captivity).

This is all been thoroughly discussed before here on Entmoot, however, several times, and I am sorry to drag it out again.

Ok, I am confused now. When you speak of "orks" being from men are you referring to Goblins? I know I am a newbie so please bear with me. Most places where I have read about Orcs states that they were elves that were awakened and then later corrupted and forced into the service of Melkor. And that Melkor or Sauron created Goblins from men and orcs.

[Nurvingiel]

I'm pretty new too Scatha, but that's what I thought as well. Welcome to Entmoot! This is the place to ask all LOTR questions.


I'm also curious about a previous post from Sister Golden Hair. Did you mean Frodo and Bilbo's lives were shorter than regular hobbits lives? Or just that they were relatively short?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I'm pretty new too Scatha, but that's what I thought as well. Welcome to Entmoot! This is the place to ask all LOTR questions.


I'm also curious about a previous post from Sister Golden Hair. Did you mean Frodo and Bilbo's lives were shorter than regular hobbits lives? Or just that they were relatively short?

I am not sure which post you are refering to and I didn't go back to try and find it, but I think I know what you are asking. Bilbo lived a long life for a Hobbit. That was one of the effects of the Ring, and would apply to Frodo aswell. What I was talking about was that if a mortal goes to the Undying Lands, their lifespan by nature would be decreased. They would live for a lesser time then they would had they stayed in the outerlands. Bilbo had already lived beyond his normal lifespan, but Frodo was still young. They both needed healing and to find peace after bearing the Ring, and this was why they went overseas.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Exactly. Being mortal, and going to the Immortal lands, guarenteed a lesser life span.

I was referring to this post in my last post. (Now that I've confused everypne including myself... )

[Sister Golden Hair]

No problem. I kinda figured that was the one you were refering to. I hope my above post cleared up the confusion.

[Ñólendil]

Ok, I am confused now. When you speak of "orks" being from men are you referring to Goblins? I know I am a newbie so please bear with me. Most places where I have read about Orcs states that they were elves that were awakened and then later corrupted and forced into the service of Melkor. And that Melkor or Sauron created Goblins from men and orcs.

Orcs (which I usually like to spell "orks", an alternate spelling Tolkien preferred toward the end of his life) and Goblins are exactly the same thing. What you've heard is some stuff derived from The Silmarillion, and other stuff derived from the movie (I guess).

Let me try to make this short and sweet:
_________

Melkor came up with the idea of Orks. Sauron, when Melkor was captured by the Valar and taken to Valinor, achieved this idea by corrupting the first Men into Orks. When he had many pure-Orks, he took them and breeded them with pure-Men and made Half-orks. Many years later, in the Third Age, Saruman discovered the secrets of this ancient evil art and breeded his own Half-orks. The race of people that were made from Orks and Men were called "Half-orcs" and "Goblin-men".

_________

Goblins=Orks, and if you were wondering about the Uruk-hai, they were an elite breed of Ork, made by Sauron in the Third Age.

Earlier in his life, J. R. R. Tolkien had the idea that Orks came from Elves, and this is the idea that appears in The Silmarillion, even though Tolkien abandoned it.

That you haven't heard of this Ork-from-Men idea is not surprizing. Most haven't, and most people who have an opinion or anything to offer on the subject will tell you that Orks (which they will spell "Orcs" like in the Lord of the Rings) came from Elves. Again, this is because that's what the published Silmarillion has to offer. Some people who have even read Tolkien's latest idea that replaced the earlier ones would still disagree with me and tell you that the Silmarillion version is the one to follow. The best thing to do is to poke around the different texts and decide for yourself.

[Scatha]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Orcs (which I usually like to spell "orks", an alternate spelling Tolkien preferred toward the end of his life) and Goblins are exactly the same thing. What you've heard is some stuff derived from The Silmarillion, and other stuff derived from the movie (I guess).

Let me try to make this short and sweet:
_________

Melkor came up with the idea of Orks. Sauron, when Melkor was captured by the Valar and taken to Valinor, achieved this idea by corrupting the first Men into Orks. When he had many pure-Orks, he took them and breeded them with pure-Men and made Half-orks. Many years later, in the Third Age, Saruman discovered the secrets of this ancient evil art and breeded his own Half-orks. The race of people that were made from Orks and Men were called "Half-orcs" and "Goblin-men".

_________

Goblins=Orks, and if you were wondering about the Uruk-hai, they were an elite breed of Ork, made by Sauron in the Third Age.

Earlier in his life, J. R. R. Tolkien had the idea that Orks came from Elves, and this is the idea that appears in The Silmarillion, even though Tolkien abandoned it.

That you haven't heard of this Ork-from-Men idea is not surprizing. Most haven't, and most people who have an opinion or anything to offer on the subject will tell you that Orks (which they will spell "Orcs" like in the Lord of the Rings) came from Elves. Again, this is because that's what the published Silmarillion has to offer. Some people who have even read Tolkien's latest idea that replaced the earlier ones would still disagree with me and tell you that the Silmarillion version is the one to follow. The best thing to do is to poke around the different texts and decide for yourself.

I still disagree with your claim that orks were from MEN and not ELVES. And I am not referring to the movie when I speak of this. I may be incorrect in assuming orcs and goblins are 2 disctinct races.

"Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the
Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of
Elves." (The Two Towers)


Tolkien stated explicitly that the Orcs are indeed
"a race of rational incarnate creatures, though horribly corrupted". Also that "In the legends of the Elder Days it
is suggested that Morgoth subjugated and corrupted some of
the earliest Elves, before they had ever heard of the 'gods', let
alone of God." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien). In fact, the
The Silmarillion does state that Orcs were Avari (Dark Elves)
captured by Morgoth..."

In the Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of Elves", the story tells how Melkor, already in Middle-earth, was the first Vala to know of the awakening of the elves. Expecting Orome to find the elves while riding Nahar, Melkor either sent out lying whispers or actual dark riders to make the elves shun Orome in fear that he would eat them. When Orome did come, the elves were afraid at first so that some ran and hid and were lost. The courageous ones who stayed saw the light of Aman in Orome's face and were drawn to him. But the unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor were imprisoned in the pits of Utumno, according to the wise of Eressea (elves):


"...and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning; so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar."
- "Of the Coming of the Elves", Silmarillion


I could do more research but the bottom line it seems is that the Tolkien Sr. created Orks as from being from Elves and then later Tolkien Jr. gave an alternate orign (men) for the origin of orcs.

[Nurvingiel]

So basically Nolendil, you're saying Tolkein had the idea that Orks came from Elves, but he later abandonned it. I had the Elf-Ork idea from the Silmarillion.
This makes sense because it was actually Tolkein's son Christopher that did the final editing and publication of the Silmarillion. He might not have intended to publish it at all.

Goblins and Orks are names that seem to be used interchangably to describe the evil man/elf-like creatures of Sauron.

Scatha has a point though, because I always pictured Goblins and Orks to be different. I always had two destinct races pictured for them.

Goblins appear more in the Hobbit and Orks in the Lord of the Rings. How much time was between the publication of those books?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Tolkien wrote the Hobbit as a children's story. The word "goblin" was a word that children were all ready familiar with throughout time. So it was a more understood term to use for children. I think that is why "goblin is used more in the Hobbit then in LotRs. LotRs was appealing to an older crowd.

[Ñólendil]

"Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the
Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of
Elves." (The Two Towers)

This is a quote from Treebeard, not Tolkien. One of Tolkien's readers (a Catholic book-store owner who thought he found many problems in Tolkien's work, on a moral level) pointed this very same passage out to Tolkien. I believe the reader was concerned about how the Enemy could be able to create. One thing that Tolkien pointed out is that even if the quote did use the word "create", Treebeard said it, not Tolkien. Tolkien said that he is not any of his characters. He also said that although Treebeard possessed "some Earthy wisdom", he is "not accounted among the Wise", and that there were a lot of things Treebeard didn't know. What is printed in Fangorn is the opinion of a character, nothing more, nothing less.

Tolkien stated explicitly that the Orcs are indeed
"a race of rational incarnate creatures, though horribly corrupted".

I don't see how this works as an argument for Orks-from-Elves.
Your quotes from the Letters and Silmarillion I have already dealt with, though maybe I was being too brief and vague. The idea that Orks came from Elves was abandoned. Tolkien long believed this, but he changed his mind about it, just like he changed his mind about the nature of the cosmos in his legendarium. The versions you have cited from The Silmarillion are rejected ideas, and Tolkien's final idea -- that they came from Men -- can be read in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring (and other texts, but the idea emerges in Myths Transformed). It can also be read here on Entmoot as I have typed it out in full. If you conduct a search on "Myths Transformed" or "Orks" or both you should be able to find it. You'll also probably find an essay on the relationship between Morgoth and Sauron called "Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion", that's another product of Myths Transformed I typed out in my insanity.

I could do more research but the bottom line it seems is that the Tolkien Sr. created Orks as from being from Elves and then later Tolkien Jr. gave an alternate orign (men) for the origin of orcs.

This is not true at all. Tolkien Sr. said Orks were corrupted (not "made" and certainly not "created") from Elves and then the very same Tolkien Sr. replaced this idea with one that stated Orks came from Men. Tolkien Jr. used the earlier one for The Silmarillion. "Tolkien Jr." never wrote his own stuff, or changed or contradicted what his father wrote. He studied his father's writings and made it possible for us to do as well. When people tell you that "The History of Middle-earth is by Christopher Tolkien" what they mean is that "The History of Middle-earth is a collection of a lot of J. R. R. Tolkien's writings that Christopher Tolkien put together and published."

Whether you accept the Orks-from-Men idea or not should really depend on whether or not you accept the old "primitive mythology" or the "scientific mythology". The former is the one we're all familiar with, it's the one Christopher Tolkien used for the Silmarillion. The latter replaced the former, and the latter is the one few of us know much about. It also happens to be the idea lying behind The Lord of the Rings. The former has Orks from Elves, the latter: Orks from Men.

In other words: I think it's okay you disagree with me, but I think you're disagreeing for the wrong reasons.

So basically Nolendil, you're saying Tolkein had the idea that Orks came from Elves, but he later abandonned it. I had the Elf-Ork idea from the Silmarillion.
This makes sense because it was actually Tolkein's son Christopher that did the final editing and publication of the Silmarillion. He might not have intended to publish it at all.

Thank you!. Those are satisfying words.

Tolkien says that "Orcs" and "Goblins" are the same thing in his Foreword to the Second Edition of The Hobbit, but they certainly are used interchangably in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Or you might just take a look at Thorin II's sword: Orcrist, translated "Goblin-cleaver".

[Nurvingiel]

This is a great debate, and our topic is far from exhausted!

I had thought Elves came from Orks because of the Silmarillion, but it wasn't JRR Tolkein who published this work. I also respect Nolendil's opinion who wrote a very well-researched and convincing post.

So I'm going to say that Orks came from men.

I think any Elf would be loathe to say Orks came from them anyway.