I Am Canadian!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[azalea]

Quite honestly, the U.S. healthcare system isn't working, either. Neither system is perfect. We had to pay a lot when my son was born even though we have health ins. We had to put it all on credit cards. I'm sure a lot of you have heard the story recently of the man who needs a heart transplant but his ins. doesn't cover it, and he can't afford to pay, so when a heart became available an inmate in prison for armed robbery got the heart, because inmates are covered by the state health plan or whatever. The man said he contemplates commiting armed robbery so he can go to prison and get his transplant paid for! Private healthcare is very inadequate because of what many ins. co.s won't cover, and those people who make too much money for Medicaid and not enough to get the very best plans or pay for care themselves are out of luck.
I like the Canadian plan of EQUAL healthcare for EVERYONE, but I think private companies are a necessity, because the gov can't afford to pay doctors what they can make in a privatized system. A combination of the 2 systems could work well. I think EVERYONE should have the option to be a part of the state health plan (the one that is for gov. employees, like our representatives), because you'd better believe that's a good plan! They would also have the option to go w/ their company's plan. That would force the other companies to provide better coverage.

[jerseydevil]

Yeah - and what would our taxes be to pay for such a system? And how much bearacracy would it create? Look at HMOs as an example - they're a bunch of suits that decide what medical attention you need, many times over riding the doctors. Is this more of what we want? My taxes are high enough - and they're wasted on special interest projects.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Yeah - and what would our taxes be to pay for such a system? And how much bearacracy would it create? Look at HMOs as an example - they're a bunch of suits that decide what medical attention you need, many times over riding the doctors. Is this more of what we want? My taxes are high enough - and they're wasted on special interest projects.

Hah! We pay 33 cents to the dollar in tax, and all our health/hospital care is paid for. We only pay for specialists, private care, and GPs. All public hospital services are paid for. (New Zealand)

Perhaps, if less money was spent on making war, then there'd be more for basic necessities, like healthcare.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants

Perhaps, if less money was spent on making war, then there'd be more for basic necessities, like healthcare.

We don't MAKE war. If the rest of the world would just take care of their own problems and stop expecting the US to get involved - it would be a lot easier on us. We're the only country in the history of the world to fight and win, yet we did not take over the territories and countries we fought against. Not to mention we also instituted the Marshall plan that not only helped our allies - but all helped the people we fought against. By the way - we have NEVER been paid back for that generous donation to the European economy.

We were mostly an isolationist country until Europe got us into 2 world wars within 20 years. After Wrold War I we destroyed most of our military hardware - sunk it and melted it down. Less than 20 years later we had to mobilize again and build it up to save Europe again from itself.

We got dragged into Bosnia - because Europe felt the US should get involved. We got dragged into Solmalia because of the UN (which I think we should leave). We got involved with Vietnam because of France.

The US only gets 5% of it's oil from the Middle East (our oil is either domestic or comes from South America) - yet everyone says that we fought Iraq for our oil. Europe gets about 50% of it's oil from the Middle East and Japan gets 70% of it's oil from them. It would be very nice if the US just went into isolation again - except when we don't do anything - then the rest of the world's attitude is "where is the United States, why don't they do something?" when we do get involved - it's "what are they doing in there?" And currently - we have an ABSOLUTE right to be in Afganistan after what happened on 9/11.

Aslo - irregardless of whether you have national healthcare or not - NO ONE in the US is turned away from receiving medical attention. Also - everyone - including ILLEGAL aliens get a "free" education. California is going bankrupt because everyone gets all this "free" stuff and half the people don't pay taxes.

Have any of you ever actually been to the US? Like I said, my friend in Canada - her friends hold the same stereotypes - and she's constantly trying to set them right.

[azalea]

By "state plan" I didn't mean a gov't run system, I meant the private health plan that is offered to gov't employees, such as Blue Cross Blue Sheild. Technically I think anyone CAN buy that insurance, but you'd have to pay a VERY high premium. I think we should all be able to choose to be a member of that group plan, as an alternate choice for those of us whose employers offer a pitiful plan, and who can't afford to buy ins. outside of a group plan. Another situation that comes to mind is people who are self-employed/ small business owners and their employees.
And certainly basic emergency services are not denied, but as I said, if you're not on Medicare/aid, you are not entitled to major lifesaving medical care that is NOT covered by your health plan, and not everyone qualifies for Medicaid. In other words, the situation in John Q COULD happen, where his son was going to die because his ins. didn't cover transplants.

[crickhollow]

Like it or not, the US has become the world's policeman. I don't see that there's a whole lot we can do about the situation. *sigh* You're right, JD, we're the scapegoat for being involved, and the scapegoat if we refuse to get involved. Talk about your lose/lose situations.

[mirrille]

As for healthcare, I've had to think about this alot and all I can see is that you can't have a system where everyone regardless of financial status can have the best healthcare. It costs too much. Every country ends up sacrificing something. In our case, everyone gets access to care, but the quality can suffer, depending on the resources available. And something else that suffers is choice, I think. In BC, they've been slashing services left, right and centre. I can guarantee there will be problems with this, especially when the effects of limiting ability for early detection and early treatment starts to cost more due to things not being taken care of until too late. sigh...there's really no way to win this one. In the US, there are access problems (e.g. JD's friend is less likely to get an MRI even if he needs one. Whereas my mother got her MRI because her doctor said she needed one, and that was that. But you have a wait a while for it.) Don't even get me started on Hong Kong. It's a mess over there.

[markedel]

Without public health care I'd be dead or at least bankrupt. Go OHIP go! I'd rather pay higher taxes and live in a secure society then be rich in a chaotic one. Proves I'm Canadian eh?

[jerseydevil]

If you say so.

[afro-elf]

You guys would pay lower taxes - but not get as many benefits.

What extra benefits don't they get that we do?


as far as lower taxes ontario has GST and PST in addition to income

in Quebec taxes were 50%

as far as NOBODY being turned away is not the same as everyone gets the best care available. i am NOT saying they do in Canada. I believe HMO's can dictate what tests can and can not be done.


Can someone who has the time post some REAL info of the healthcare systems in the World.

I'll see if i can find it again but the US is considered to have the best EMERGENCY care in the world but not necessarily the best total system

[afro-elf]

PS

were did you get the info about USA get only 5% from the Middle East

[mirrille]

If you notice, he is stating figures for how much of a country's oil comes from the middle east, not how much of the middle east's oil is going to that country. For example, Japan has no natural oil reserves, so of course they have to get 100% of their oil from somewhere else. Contrast that to the US, which does have their own oil supplies, plus some closer places (ummm...Alberta, comes to mind, being relatively close. I don't know how much they would get from places like that, but I'd imagine the shipping would be cheaper) where they could get oil, but it is a much larger and energy consuming nation. The figures cited say nothing about the actual amount of oil that the US gets from there, or what percentage of middle east oil goes there. So the 5% figure is not very helpful. I suspect it's a bit misleading, for that reason. Be very careful evaluating what the statistics are actually able to tell you.

[Radagast]

I am not Canadian but I sympathise with Candians and how they are so maligned. Examples:

Canadians are 1% of the world's population and yet have 10% of the worlds peacekeeping force.

Candians fought extremely bravely in numerous incidents in WW1 and WW2 in which hundreds of thousands of them died (maybe more).

Also a good example of Bush's arrogance and ignorance toward Canada was the very recent military blunder in Afghanistan were an American pilot BLEW UP a platoon of Candian soldiers killing four and wounding ten! And guess what? The American media either did not even mention this or they just stuffed it into the last line of an article, preferring instead the "feel good story of the US Marines coming home to their family". Bush did not even express regret, the arrogant man did not even make a formal press conference, canadian reporters had to hound him to even get an interview about it! This is appalling.

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by Radagast
I am not Canadian but I sympathise with Candians and how they are blatantly expoloited by the US.

Dude that's some of most whack stuff I've ever heard. Your perception and facts are truly off kilter.

Examples:
Candians are 1% of the world's population and yet have 10% of the worlds peacekeeping force.

PLEASE explain how the above EXPLOITS canadians.

First of all your figures are WAY off. To make it easy

6 billion people in the world using your figures there's 60 million people in canada


there are just over 31 million people in canada

canada has a little over 200,000 military personel
Personel does not mean fighters that means ALL the people in the military


you say that canada supplies 10% of the peace keeping forces that is also VERY wrong

As of 31 October 2000, 89 countries are contributors of almost 38,000 military and civilian police personnel. Of this number, the top five are: India, 4,460; Nigeria, 3,441; Jordan, 3,400; Bangladesh, 2,394; Ghana, 1,894.

Candians fought extremely bravely in numerous incidents n WW1 and WW2 in which hundreds of thousands of them died (maybe more).

How does that in any way exploit canada? They fought in WWI and WWII. You make it sound as the US drove them from their homes and that we used them as human shields.

Also a good example of Bush's arrogance and ignorance toward Canada was the very recent military blunder in Afghanistan were an American pilot BLEW UP a platoon of Candian soldiers killing four and wounding ten!

Guess what We've killed our own soliders also. Do you truly believe that the US intentially killed them or the Canadians

And guess what? The American media either did not even mention this or they just stuffed it into the last line of an article, preferring instead the "feel good story of the US Marines coming home to their family".

That is an UTTER AND BLANANT LIE!!!!!

That story was all over the news

Bush did not even express regret, the arrogant man did not even make a formal press conference, canadian reporters had to hound him to even get an interview about it! This is appaling.

That is an UTTER AND BLANANT LIE!!!

I watched him give his regrets on tv.

Radagast your info is amazingly faulty and nothing but US bashing without any basis of factual info

OOPS my own replies are mixed in the above quotes so please read the above to see them
SORRY

Edited by the masked avenger: hey Aelf, i edited your post to make it readable...i fixed it. I agree with you too! go Aelf!

[afro-elf]

If you notice, he is stating figures for how much of a country's oil comes from the middle east, not how much of the middle east's oil is going to that country

can you make this a little more clear

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by afro-elf
PS

were did you get the info about USA get only 5% from the Middle East

ABC News, it was first on Nightline and then later on World News Tonight. They borke down where our oil comes from. Around 40% is domestic - most of the rest is from South America (majority from Venezuela) and then 5% was from the Middle East. They said the US can be cut off from Middle Eastern oil and it wouldn't hurt us as badly - but because of Europe's and Japan's heavy reliance on Middle Eastern oil - it would cause a worldwide econimic catastrophe that would affect the US. I've been trying to find it on the ABCNews.com website - but I haven't had any luck. I'm going to send them an e-mail and see if they can give me any information on the numbers.

And concerning Radagast's comments - they are lies. Our news had on a lot about the Canadians being killed. They showed video of their bodies arriving in Canada and everything. Our newspapers had about it on the front page. We our sorry that it happened - but a lot of our own soldiers have died in friendly fire. It's one of the bad things about war - people die, some innocently, some mistakenly.

[mirrille]

Originally posted by afro-elf



can you make this a little more clear

ok. how to make this more clear? I was merely trying to point out an important point in how to interpret the oil statistics that someone so generously researched for us. Maybe this will make it clear: There is a difference between saying the US gets 5% of its oil from middle east and saying the US only gets 5% of the middle east's oil. So when you think "Oh, that's so little.", just think of what is actually little. That's all. I didn't find the figure that helpful.

As for Bush making a public statement about the 4 Canadians in that accident, yes, he did make a public statement, but it was at least 2 days after the fact. I remember because I was scratching my head wondering why the USA side was being so quiet about the whole thing, and it wasn't until AFTER people over here were getting a tad offended that anything came out (i.e. so what does the US have to say? how come they're not saying anything? Bush: Oh yeah, I did express my regret (privately) to your PM. So sorry! - I forget the rest, but that was the gist of it.) So he did. He just took his own sweet time. I don't know about American newspapers, although I'd imagine they'd latch onto a disaster story like this just as normal, but the official government PR machine seems a bit slow, if anything. This can be a problem, the general feeling seems to be that we are being overlooked constantly. It makes people less happy about helping out. So those people in charge of public relations down south are going to have to pay a bit more attention to their work. It's not irreparable damage, but it does accumulate if left unattended.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by mirrille
I don't know about American newspapers, although I'd imagine they'd latch onto a disaster story like this just as normal...

Don't even start on that your newspapers are better than the United State's. I've been to Canada tons of times - and I know they latch onto disaster stories just as much. Canadian news is NO better than the US's.

And I really don't know what your saying concerning our oil. We only get 5% of OUR oil from the Middle East. I don't know why you don't find this figure very helpful? It seems as if your're implying that the US uses tons of oil - so 5% would be a lot. Well my point was - that we could easily get the 5% from someone else if we need to. Europe can not just turn around and get 50% of it's oil from some one else. And it would be nearly impossible for Japan to get it's oil from another source. Dont' forget - oil isn't only used in cars - but in carpeting, plastic and almost everything we use. Not to mention the transportation to ship the products.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally posted by jerseydevil


We don't MAKE war. If the rest of the world would just take care of their own problems and stop expecting the US to get involved -

Umm excuse me, not to start a huge bloody debate here but, no one expected the US to get involved in Vietnam. And notice how the US came late to both World Wars and only after they themselves were attacked. Could they not have been looking out for the interests of their allies and not just their own.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund


Umm excuse me, not to start a huge bloody debate here but, no one expected the US to get involved in Vietnam. And notice how the US came late to both World Wars and only after they themselves were attacked. Could they not have been looking out for the interests of their allies and not just their own.

If you knew about US history - you'd know that the US was a basically an isolationist country during World War I and II. Why should we get dragged into a European War? And France did want the US to get involved in Vietnam. Why couldn't Europe handle Bosnia without US help? Why couldn't the UN handle Somalia without us getting involved?

Also - whose interest is a country supposed to look out after. The only responsiblity a country has is to IT'S OWN CITIZENS. Who do you want Canda looking after - you're intersts or a country 3,000 miles away?? The History Channel had on a quote from a European leader from World War II the other day - "Countries don't have allies - they have interests." Sorry but it's true.