The Eye of Sauron

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I had forgotten about that illustration.

Two questions:

1. Is that Sauron after the Ring has been destroyed, reaching out toward the Captains of the West and the expeditionary force of Dunedain and Rohirrim?
2. Does he have one eye or two? (If he has a third eye, it must be in the back of his head, as many children recall their mothers claiming...)

I don't have the book - so I can't check. But I think the illustration is of this passage:

And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

If it is the case, it is not a real flesh-and-blood Sauron (who was NOT gigantic) , but some illusion.
Yet, I think I see TWO eyes!

NEL - I don't really see why you discuss the ability of Palantirs to see in the Spirit World. Pippin clearly saw over the Palantir Sauron's physical body, not the Eye:

'And then he came and questioned me; and he looked at me
He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood. [...]
'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"
'Then he gloated over me. I felt I was falling to pieces. No, no! I can't say any more. I don't remember anything else.'

It was in Galadriel's Mirror that Frodo saw the Eye. And the Mirror, unlike the Palantirs, that are merely high-tech, is a purely magical device, even Galadriel herself admits as much. ("But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?") The Mirror indeed shows visions, not only real things. I guess the Eye in the Mirror was a Spirit-World image.

Also, consider Galadriel's words to Frodo:

`Yes,' she said, divining his thought, `it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.

Suppose for a moment that the Eye is a physical feature of Sauron's body. Then anyone who had simply once seen Sauron (i.e. Gollum, Pippin, Aragorn, Denethor etc. + quite a few orcs,) would afterwards be able to see and recognize Galadriel's Ring? It just doesn't ring true.

Much more plausible is the other explanation: to see the Eye=to be able to see into the Spirit World. And for those who have access there, Galadriel's Ring is no mystery.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

NEL - I don't really see why you discuss the ability of Palantirs to see in the Spirit World. Pippin clearly saw over the Palantir Sauron's physical body, not the Eye

Because I do not necessarily believe that Pippin did see S's physical body. Maybe, maybe not. Your quote is, excuse me, too vague to deduce that Pippin saw a body, not the Spirit-world manifestation of S's evil will, the Eye. *bows* Until proved wrong, I'll cling to my view, and try to understand yours to my best ability.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Because I do not necessarily believe that Pippin did see S's physical body. ... Your quote is ... too vague to deduce that Pippin saw a body, not the Spirit-world manifestation of S's evil will, the Eye. ... Until proved wrong, I'll cling to my view, and try to understand yours to my best ability. ...

You are free to believe what you like. However, your notion that the palantÃ*ri saw into the “spirit-worldâ€� or “wraith-worldâ€�, whatever you want to call it – and there is ample evidence in the texts that a “spirit-worldâ€� or “wraith-worldâ€� exists in Tolkien’s subcreation – is clearly counter to the essay “The PalantÃ*riâ€� published in Unfinished Tales.

[Attalus]

I suspect that "Soldiers of the Eye", etc, are the literary device of synecdoche. "A figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole (as hand for sailor),"

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I suspect that "Soldiers of the Eye", etc, are the literary device of synecdoche. "A figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole (as hand for sailor),"

<sigh>
It is beginning to look that way. But however things might appear, I think I shall always envision Sauron as cyclopean in my mind's eye.
</sigh>

But I think I will keep a lookout for evidence that he was one-eyed. (What exactly did Frodo see, Sauron looking through a telescope? Was he winking? Have a mote in his eye? Just woke up? Maybe he had pinkeye?)

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

You are free to believe what you like. However, your notion that the palantÃ*ri saw into the “spirit-worldâ€� ... is clearly counter to the essay “The PalantÃ*riâ€� published in Unfinished Tales.

Don't have that. Gonna get it someday though.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Don't have that.

Fair enough. I've not read the Kalevala, although I understand that it had a powerful influence on Tolkien.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Because I do not necessarily believe that Pippin did see S's physical body. Maybe, maybe not. Your quote is, excuse me, too vague to deduce that Pippin saw a body, not the Spirit-world manifestation of S's evil will, the Eye. *bows* Until proved wrong, I'll cling to my view, and try to understand yours to my best ability.

Hmmm... interesting.

To throw another kink into all this, and maybe add a little weight to NEL's argument:

My son is reading LOTR (so proud of him!) and lately, I've been reading portions of 'ROTK' with him. I hadn't remembered this, but in 'The Passing of the Grey Company', as Aragorn recounts HIS encounter with Sauron in the Palantir, he says:

Originally Posted by Aragorn

"... I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here."

So Aragorn, at least, was clearly able to project a different view of himself through the Stone. Could Sauron also? (He was not the rightful owner) Would he have bothered to if he could?

[CAB]

"... I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here."

I always took that to mean that he just dressed differently for the encounter with Sauron. Maybe the company from the North brought something for him to wear while claiming the Kingship or maybe he simply "showed off" the armor he was wearing. Just something to make him look more "kingly". I seem to recall that Aragorn was accustomed to changing his appearance by conventional methods.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I always took that to mean that he just dressed differently for the encounter with Sauron. Maybe the company from the North brought something for him to wear while claiming the Kingship or maybe he simply "showed off" the armor he was wearing. Just something to make him look more "kingly". I seem to recall that Aragorn was accustomed to changing his appearance by conventional methods.

Yes, I think so too. And probably this "something" was Valandil's Elendilmir?
Add to this Narsil reforged and the general "kingly air" that Aragorn sometimes adopted. I guess Sau was convinced.

Another thing. I have just stumbled on Gandalf's description of Frodo to Butterbur:

'But this one is taller than some and fairer than most, and he has a cleft in his chin: perky chap with a bright eye.

Now we do know Frodo had two eyes!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

:
:
Now we do know Frodo had two eyes!

Do you have a quote to back that up?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Do you have a quote to back that up?

YES!

Frodo propped his back against the tree-trunk, and closed his eyes (PLURAL!)

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Gordis

YES!

But could Frodo see out of both eyes?

(Is there a quote to support his ability or inability to see out of both of his eyes?)

Re: Frodo's bright eye.

Maybe one eye was brighter than the other. Maybe Frodo had a shiny glass eye. (I have no quote to support Frodo with a shiny glass eye)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

"Bright eyes" are another topic I'm interested in. The "bright eyes" of the Elves are mentioned several times and they seem to be the main distinguishing physical characteristic between Elves and Men, but I'm not sure whether to take the phrase literally.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Maybe one eye was brighter than the other.

Or maybe it's just a long lasting aftereffect of his passionate love for some "stimulating" mushrooms.

[Valandil]

Gordis - your quotation only rules out one eye, not three or more.

[Earniel]

One eye? Three eyes? Oh dear, you people are insane. Creatively insane, but insane nevertheless. I like this topic, it's amazing how differently people can interpret the same text. I never even considered the possibility of a Cylcopean Sauron until now. I still don't buy it, but I find it an interesting concept.

[Noble Elf Lord]

I remembered another quote to support the spirit-world Eye, though since I do not possess an English (or whatever) copy of LotR, you have to find it with my guidance. I believe Frodo said near Mt.Doom that there is "no veil" between him and the "wheel/ring of fire". The Ring allowed him to see into the S-W occasionally even when not worn, did it not? The wheel of fire was Sauron, but since Frodo didn't see properly, he couldn't recognize it as the Eye (by his vision) - that, or he knew that Sam knew what he meant. Or both.

Thoughts? Or I know you have thoughts, but what be they?

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And probably this "something" was Valandil's Elendilmir?

Didn't they only find that later - or is this the copy?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Didn't they only find that later - or is this the copy?

They found Elendil's Elendilmir (E-I) later, in Saruman's hoard: it had been drowned with Isildur. But the Elves made a new one (E-II) for Valandil, and forty Arnor Kings and Chieftains had worn it before it came to Aragorn.

Originally Posted by NEL

I remembered another quote to support the spirit-world Eye, though since I do not possess an English (or whatever) copy of LotR, you have to find it with my guidance. I believe Frodo said near Mt.Doom that there is "no veil" between him and the "wheel/ring of fire". The Ring allowed him to see into the S-W occasionally even when not worn, did it not? The wheel of fire was Sauron, but since Frodo didn't see properly, he couldn't recognize it as the Eye (by his vision) - that, or he knew that Sam knew what he meant. Or both.

The "Wheel of Fire" was the Ring itself, not the Eye.

Frodo: " And the Ring is so heavy, Sam. And I begin to see it in my mind all the time, like a great wheel of fire"-LOTR, The Land of Shadow

That is how it looked in the Spirit World, I guess.