America and Its Culture

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by sun-star

What's so great about the British police, though?

Ever tried getting arrested by the French police?

Hey Lotsy, that's a great list.

Is there a distinction to be made between "popular" culture and "high" culture? Personally I don't think so, but wondered if that would be worth talking about.

Certainly, in the latter case, the US is very much more international than in the former. Meaning that US popular culture seems, to an outsider, rather insular and uniform in its perspective (U-571 being the apotheosis of this: a true story of wartime heroism rewritten with Americans doing the heroics instead of Brits). That's not to say that the same thing doesn't go on in other cultures though, just perhaps not on such a scale.

In "high" culture, I think the US is very much part of the international scene.

And in either arena, America is very vibrant and leading-edge anyway.

[hectorberlioz]

I watched the U-571 movie. Not a bad movie, but a little on the, um slow side.
I guess I should have remembered a little more of my history...I'm assuming the U-571 was one of the famous U-Boats that we sent over to give aid to the countries we were supporting during WWII. But you say it was a british boat, Gaffer?

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I'm assuming the U-571 was one of the famous U-Boats that we sent over to give aid to the countries we were supporting during WWII. But you say it was a british boat, Gaffer?

I thought it was a German boat

[sun-star]

A German submarine.

[Anglorfin]

Lotesse you forgot about Bob Ross!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Mari

By the way, one of the greatest products of American culture (if that's what you want to call it) must be movies!!! Especially Disney-movies with a happy ending.

Ewww...

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I watched the U-571 movie. Not a bad movie, but a little on the, um slow side.
I guess I should have remembered a little more of my history...I'm assuming the U-571 was one of the famous U-Boats that we sent over to give aid to the countries we were supporting during WWII. But you say it was a british boat, Gaffer?

U-571 was a U-boat, a German submarine. During WW2, the US kindly kept Britain supplied with the stuff we needed (which debt we just paid off last year, interestingly). The U-boats terrorised the supply ships bringing this stuff across the atlantic. It was called the Battle of the Atlantic. Along with Midway, Stalingrad and North Africa, it was one of the key turning points of the war.

But you'll recall that wasn't the point of the film. The U-boats carried Enigma machines, so they could communicate with German command using the "unbreakable" code. As you also know your computing history, you'll know that the British broke the Enigma code, using the first true electronic computers, and subsequently were able to read German command and intelligence. This had a massive influence on the outcome of the war.

In order to break the code, we had to capture Enigma machines. Several were recovered from U-boats. The event U-571 is based on was actually carried out by the Royal Navy.

So, basically, you have Hollywood rewriting history with Americans as the heroes instead of Brits.

"Get over it!" I hear you declaim, and rightly so. But this particular example was especially galling to lots of people in the UK.

Apparently it's an OK action film though. However, the point would be around how Hollywood has to rehash all stories as easily digestible fodder for the multiplex cattle.

[hectorberlioz]

Sorry about that guys, you're right: German. I've been so indoctrinated with this relativity stuff in college I can't think straight...

[jellyfishannah]

If we have no culture than how is it criticized so often by everyone?

Ahem. "Culture: The system of shared beliefs, values, customs, behaviours, and artifacts that the members of society use to cope with their world and with one another, and that are transmitted from generation to generation through learning."

If we go by that particular definition of culture, we can easily see why it may be difficult to say that America has a definite culture. Mainly because it is composed of so many diverse beliefs, values, customs, etc.

When people think of a rich culture, they are like to either think of some people who have not been touched by "progress" or they think of Europeans guzzling wine and discussing America's sad state of culturelessness. The latter thought probably more likely refers to the arts and refinement or something. BEING cultured not having culture.

The first makes sense, since in a society untouched by modernity and industrilization will more likely share all the same beliefs, values, customs. This kind of culture you certainly do find in America but you cannot say that all of America shares it. But if someone is going to claim that, say, France has a culture than there is an argument for America, as well. The only thing they have over us is that they have more history being a "civilised", Christian country. Their history is more well known, their architecture is more well-known...

As the world stands now, it seems that real culture is something to be admired but not desired. You can't really have a culture if you are a connosiuer of culture. You can admire a society, live in it, whatever but you do not share the culture if you believe the people are mistaken in their beliefs.

Culture is a very romantacized idea and therefore, rubbish.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by jellyfishannah

When people think of a rich culture, they are like to either think of some people who have not been touched by "progress" or they think of Europeans guzzling wine and discussing America's sad state of culturelessness.

I found this completely hilarious.

I don't think the idea of culture is rubbish, but I do think that criticizing another because it's different or has some aspects you don't like is rubbish.

[jellyfishannah]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I found this completely hilarious.

I don't think the idea of culture is rubbish, but I do think that criticizing another because it's different or has some aspects you don't like is rubbish.

I know what you mean but I mean, mainly, the romanticized version of it that often applies only to Europe because of its history, art, and heck, its chocolate.

[hectorberlioz]

Anymore fire for this thread?

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Anymore fire for this thread?

I'd think that, that film thread would give you enough fire without trying to keep this one alive.

But now that you mention it we have sports like rodeo that are uniquely american, us and Canada were the only two countrys to compete in rodeo when the Olympics were held in Salt Lake City.

[Mari]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

But now that you mention it we have sports like rodeo that are uniquely american, us and Canada were the only two countrys to compete in rodeo when the Olympics were held in Salt Lake City.

That's kinda sad actually. Just like "korfbal", the fight for the titel is almost always between Belgium and the Netherlands and when it comes to ice-skating, there is usually at least 1 German or Dutch person on the stage...
But I must agree with jellyfishannah that American culture (you all convinced me that there is such a thing seems to be fragmented, like a mosaic. Probably because there are Italian-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, and so on and so forth.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

You can talk about culture and then feel inadequate because the word you're using means "Something rich people used to show poor people who was in charge." So you have giant palaces full of art that the Medicis hired to show off and hopefully get into heaven.

The US is still kinda short on that stuff, thank goodness.

But "American culture" is a living organism. That's the one people hate. But it's a work in progress. It's being created in a collaborative way that's rare, if not unique, in the world. And it encompasses Georgia O'Keefe, sure, and Mark Twain, but it also makes movies from stories written by Russian Jews with German directors and British actors and Australian musicians, and Mexican choreographers, and thinks nothing of it.

They ain't got that in Bosnia, kwim? And no one in JAPAN, of all places, can make me feel culturally inferior. That culture was frozen in the 14th century until they had the good fortune to lose a war to us. Many as our mistakes are, they would not have loved the world they were trying to get. Neither would the current crop of folks yearning for the Stone Age. It's not as much fun, when all the pillaging is over and flush toilets are gone.

Thorstein Veblen had the right of it. America chose to be on the side of taking chances rather than hallowing tradition, because tradition is the culture of the status quo, and we weren't those guys. We were the ones who could do better by giving up almost everything, and taking a chance here. It gave us a messy pattern, from time to time. But it gave us juxtapositions that are intrinsically more vivid than static cultures.

And the butterfly stroke in swimming. Those darned Americans. They MUST tinker.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by captain carrot

Rian:


little uniforms?

One suspects Rian may have seen one too many striptease shows!

No, just too much Monty Python!


Anyways, you guys are all wrong - culture is something that's grown in a petri dish.

[Nurvingiel]

Haha! In the USA, you grow some darn fine culture.

So how's Arizona RÃ*an? Notice any cultural differences between it and California?

[Mari]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

But "American culture" is a living organism. That's the one people hate. But it's a work in progress. It's being created in a collaborative way that's rare, if not unique, in the world. And it encompasses Georgia O'Keefe, sure, and Mark Twain, but it also makes movies from stories written by Russian Jews with German directors and British actors and Australian musicians, and Mexican choreographers, and thinks nothing of it.

They ain't got that in Bosnia, kwim? And no one in JAPAN, of all places, can make me feel culturally inferior. That culture was frozen in the 14th century until they had the good fortune to lose a war to us. Many as our mistakes are, they would not have loved the world they were trying to get. Neither would the current crop of folks yearning for the Stone Age. It's not as much fun, when all the pillaging is over and flush toilets are gone.

First of all: I agree with you on your first point; culture is something the people who once lived, live now and will live, create together and it is a combination of several things.
But I never attacked the American history, nor did I specifically attack Amercan culture, so I really don't see why you should attack the Japanese history. I would also like to know which statement of mine made you feel culturally inferior, because it was never my intention to do so. Furthermore, if it is possible for someone to make you feel culturally inferior, does that not mean you are not exactly sure of your own culture yourself?
About the Japanese history: they simply imitated what the West (and that includes America) had shown them the centuries before. And who knows what would have happened if America would have allowed them to develop on their own and did not force unequal treaties on Japan (as did other Western countries) and threw atomic bombs on them later on?
Look, I don't want to get in an argumental war over history. And perhaps I should mention that I am not Japanese (which you would have known if you would have read the entire thread) but that I am living here for a year.
If you want to oppose my opinion, fine, that's your right, but please stop throwing around wild statements and knocking others to the ground just so you can stand above them.

[Earniel]

Considering Hector too used the technique of belittling another culture to the advancement of his, perhaps that behaviour is also part of the American culture? ( <- please take note of the smiley)

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by Mari

Furthermore, if it is possible for someone to make you feel culturally inferior, does that not mean you are not exactly sure of your own culture yourself?

That seems to be what this thread is really about. I don't see a bunch of smug Europeans looking down their noses at American culture here, or anywhere else for that matter. You guys are defending yourselves from an imaginary attack - why do you feel the need to prove your cultural superiority by caricaturing the rest of the world as hidebound and stale?