Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Thanks for this excellent, awesome post, Blackheart! I agree with you very much, about the Hitler was no more a christian than is george Bush - but look, they both use religion to furtur their ends. They both claim christianity. Awesome post! Now I really, really must log off.

Err.. that's only slightly off the point.

"It isn't a religious phenomenon, it's a human phenomenon."

It's a problem with human political systems, that involves religion only as it (religion) impacts politics.

Any other system of "ethics" could be subsititued, and probably has been. Secular humanism, communism, and lets not forget the multitudes of plain raw power grabs in the name of "The People"...

Taoism, Buddhism, Divine Right, even (possibly but very ironically) pascifism have been used to justify the worst sorts of excesses.

If you're only going to throw rocks at religion, you ARE just engaged in religion bashing...

Which I might point out, is merely another example of the problem with human political systems, in which a power base has to find a scapegoat in order to "elevate" itself.

I've watched the rise in vitriol from self-identified humanists and athiests in recent years rather sadly.

It's part of the human nature to elevate by tearing down, instead of cooperating. Altruism genes only account for parts of human behavior. Competition is still a much stronger factor.

Religion isn't the source of all of Humanities problems. Humanity is. Religion isn't going to solve them. Neither is Humanism.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

If you're only going to throw rocks at religion, you ARE just engaged in religion bashing...

Which I might point out, is merely another example of the problem with human political systems, in which a power base has to find a scapegoat in order to "elevate" itself.

Religion isn't the source of all of Humanities problems. Humanity is. Religion isn't going to solve them. Neither is Humanism.

What will solve the Humanites problems, then? Religion certainly won't, we have seen that time and time again throughout history. Then what will? Do you have all the answers?

What is Humanism?

Quick definitions (humanism)


noun: the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural
noun: the cultural movement of the Renaissance; based on classical studies
noun: the doctrine that people's duty is to promote human welfare

Actually, when I look at this definition I find myself thinking that Humanism could indeed help sove some ugly social problems extant in our world. People's duty is to promote human welfare, is it not? I think so. I think I might be a Humanist; I'll have to look furthur into the definitions of Humanism & think more about it.

Oh - and you quoted my answer before I went back & revised it a little, so here it is with my new revisions:

Thanks for this excellent, awesome post, Blackheart! I agree with you very much, about the Hitler was no more a christian than is george Bush - but look, they both use religion to furthur their ends and advance their agenda. They both claim(ed) Christianity. Bush uses God all the time, just like Hitler did. Awesome post! Now I really, really must log off.


Must - log - off... such an addicting conversation!!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Back, just for a quick second -

*raises hand* Ooo, oo - I can guess the next madman! Maybe it's Bush! And he uses Christianity. Not Islam. Both Islam and Christianity are waging war with "each other," in this century, right now, as we speak. The West, with Christianity, against the East, with Islam. Organised religion is utilised by both major religions to furthur evil ends.

I'd like to discuss this post with you, too, Blackheart, when I come back later on & I have the time.

You think Bush's religion is organised?

But seriously, while it's possible, I suppose, to say that America is waging war against Islam with Christianity (but I think it's very much a stretch; where does Bush say God told him to kill all the infidel Moslems?), one certainly can't say that the West as a whole is. The West as a whole is too busy ignoring Christianity to fight anything with it.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

But what of the fact that the Pope released an encyclical, during occupation, condemning Nazism, and even going so far as to break with a solidly established norm (which Rome thrives on) and publish it in German, rather than Latin?

I'm not quite certain how Hitler could be supported by the Church for decades before he came on the scene...?

Anyway, I await your response to my response to your point-by-point post.

I was unclear there about the decades thing; I'm getting hurried since I'm now mooting on borrowed time. What I meant was anti-Semitism within the Church was in place for many decades, nay, centuries even, before Hitler came on the scene and decided to capitalise upon Christian anti-Semitism to furthur his political agenda. Is that better?

The thing about the Pope and stuff I need to research more before I can really get into it properly. It is there, though. The connexion is there. The proof will be in the pudding; I need to do more thorough research to pursue this line of reasoning. Will get back to it later.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Oh - and you quoted my answer before I went back & revised it a little, so here it is with my new revisions:

Thanks for this excellent, awesome post, Blackheart! I agree with you very much, about the Hitler was no more a christian than is george Bush - but look, they both use religion to furthur their ends and advance their agenda. They both claim(ed) Christianity.

Good call. I don't think Hitler claims much of anything for the past 61 years (exactly, a week from Sunday).

Shall we celebrate Hitler Death Day?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I was unclear there about the decades thing; I'm getting hurried since I'm now mooting on borrowed time. What I meant was anti-Semitism within the Church was in place for many decades, nay, centuries even, before Hitler came on the scene and decided to capitalise upon Christian anti-Semitism to furthur his political agenda. Is that better?

The thing about the Pope and stuff I need to research more before I can really get into it properly. It is there, though. The connexion is there. The proof will be in the pudding; I need to do more thorough research to pursue this line of reasoning. Will get back to it later.

Ah, well certainly it's true that there was anti-semitism in the Church for over a millenium. One of the less pleasant inheritances from the early Church. The Church certainly doesn't officially support anti-semitism, though, it's merely in the Church per aliud, i.e., through those who are anti-semitical and in the Church.

[Rían]

Hey, I think I agree with Lotesse now! - I agree that Hitler claimed Christianity (but I would modify it with "at least some of the time" based on Gwai's post with Hitler's anti-Christian quotes).

Well, the end of the world will be interesting, to see the answers to many questions - only God knows who "is" a Christian or not - Jesus Himself said that many would call Him "Lord", but He wouldn't even know them.

I think Gwai's point ("where does Bush say God told him to kill all the infidel Moslems?") is a good one, and one I've been trying to emphasize - I think we need to look at the tenets of the respective belief systems and see if they're being followed or not. A person can call themselves whatever they want, but the proof is in their actions and if they line up with the tenets of their belief.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Hey, I think I agree with Lotesse now! - I agree that Hitler claimed Christianity (but I would modify it with "at least some of the time" based on Gwai's post with Hitler's anti-Christian quotes).

Certainly, he claimed it some of the time. But evidence strongly indicates that he did reject it.

Well, the end of the world will be interesting, to see the answers to many questions - only God knows who "is" a Christian or not - Jesus Himself said that many would call Him "Lord", but He wouldn't even know them.

A Pope was once asked if he was going to Heaven. His response was, "I hope so."

I think Gwai's point ("where does Bush say God told him to kill all the infidel Moslems?") is a good one, and one I've been trying to emphasize - I think we need to look at the tenets of the respective belief systems and see if they're being followed or not. A person can call themselves whatever they want, but the proof is in their actions and if they line up with the tenets of their belief.

Weeeeeeell, that's not exactly the point I was making. I was thinking along the lines of "Osama says it is your Muslim duty to destroy the West", but it doesn't that Bush ever says, as far as I know, that it is your Christian duty to assault Iraq, whether it is or no.

*Disclaimer making certain no one thinks the HAL is defending Bush*

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gwai

Weeeeeeell, that's not exactly the point I was making. I was thinking along the lines of "Osama says it is your Muslim duty to destroy the West", but it doesn't that Bush ever says, as far as I know, that it is your Christian duty to assault Iraq, whether it is or no.

I think your point was an excellent point! I extrapolated it back a bit, though, because I imagine Osama based his opinion on the Koran, while I doubt that Bush would find anything in the New Testament to base a "kill all the infidel Muslims" opinion on.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I think your point was an excellent point! I extrapolated it back a bit, though, because I imagine Osama based his opinion on the Koran, while I doubt that Bush would find anything in the New Testament to base a "kill all the infidel Muslims" opinion on.

Ah, extrapolating, extrapolating. Tsk tsk.

[Dubya]Wawl, shuwcks, Aw knaow it's arown' here sumwhay.[/Dubya]

But seriously, my point was merely that Lotesse said that Bush (and consequently, the West, cos we all know Western society is all about the US ) was using Christianity to fight Islam. I was saying that I don't of any time when he does actually do a "Christian against Infidel" thing. Though I admit that I don't exactly follow his every word.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

. I was saying that I don't of any time when he does actually do a "Christian against Infidel" thing. Though I admit that I don't exactly follow his every word.

"W" doesn't....some on the MOOT are a bit left of center when it comes to that subject.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Spock

"W" doesn't....some on the MOOT are a bit left of center when it comes to that subject.

I never would have guessed.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Hey, I think I agree with Lotesse now! - I agree that Hitler claimed Christianity (but I would modify it with "at least some of the time" based on Gwai's post with Hitler's anti-Christian quotes).

I thnk it is important here to distinguish claiming Christianity and actually being a Christian. I agree with what Lotesse has saying about Hitler claiming to be Christian, but what he did was not Christian. Remember what Jesus said whilst dying upon the cross. "Forgive them Lord." I don't have my bible on me at the moment so I can't find exacly what it says. But this (as it seems to me) is Jesus pleading for the forgivness of those who put him to death, both the Romans, and the Jews who chose him to be the prisoner that was not freed.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Well, the end of the world will be interesting, to see the answers to many questions - only God knows who "is" a Christian or not - Jesus Himself said that many would call Him "Lord", but He wouldn't even know them.

True, and I would say that Hitler was one of these people, but that is only my personal opinion.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I thnk it is important here to distinguish claiming Christianity and actually being a Christian. I agree with what Lotesse has saying about Hitler claiming to be Christian, but what he did was not Christian. Remember what Jesus said whilst dying upon the cross. "Forgive them Lord." I don't have my bible on me at the moment so I can't find exacly what it says

Thus:

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

[Lotesse]

Hi, I'm back already! I'm obsessing on this topic; couldn't stay away. Got on the computer at my boyfriend's office & went right to work researching the Hitler-Vatican connexion, in response to Gwaimir. While research hunting, I came upon this riveting article written by a man named John Cornwall who has published a book called Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pope Pius XII - anyway, it is a fascinating read, but the article is huge so I'll post the link to it and just pull out a chunk right here to illustrate my point with. This guy is extremely well-researched. And the article (book excerpt?)is a very interesting read; I really recommend it.


~~~~~~~~

After Hitler came to power in January 1933, he made the concordat negotiations with Pacelli a priority. The negotiations proceeded over six months with constant shuttle diplomacy between the Vatican and Berlin. Hitler spent more time on this treaty than on any other item of foreign diplomacy during his dictatorship.

The Reich Concordat granted Pacelli the right to impose the new Code of Canon Law on Catholics in Germany and promised a number of measures favorable to Catholic education, including new schools. In exchange, Pacelli collaborated in the withdrawal of Catholics from political and social activity. The negotiations were conducted in secret by Pacelli, Kaas, and Hitler's deputy chancellor, Franz von Papen, over the heads of German bishops and the faithful. The Catholic Church in Germany had no say in setting the conditions.

In the end, Hitler insisted that his signature on the concordat would depend on the Center Party's voting for the Enabling Act, the legislation that was to give him dictatorial powers. It was Kaas, chairman of the party but completely in thrall to Pacelli, who bullied the delegates into acceptance. Next, Hitler insisted on the "voluntary" disbanding of the Center Party, the last truly parliamentary force in Germany. Again, Pacelli was the prime mover in this tragic Catholic surrender. The fact that the party voluntarily disbanded itself, rather than go down fighting, had a profound psychological effect, depriving Germany of the last democratic focus of potential noncompliance and resistance: In the political vacuum created by its surrender, Catholics in the millions joined the Nazi Party, believing that it had the support of the Pope. The German bishops capitulated to Pacelli's policy of centralization, and German Catholic democrats found themselves politically leaderless.

After the Reich Concordat was signed, Pacelli declared it an unparalleled triumph for the Holy See. In an article in L 'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican-controlled newspaper, he announced that the treaty, indicated the total recognition and acceptance of the church's law by the German state. But Hitler was the true victor and the Jews were the concordat's first victims. On July 14, 1933, after the initialing of the treaty, the Cabinet minutes record Hitler as saying that the concordat had created an atmosphere of confidence that would be "especially significant in the struggle against international Jewry." He was claiming that the Catholic Church had publicly given its blessing, at home and abroad, to the policies of National Socialism, including its anti-Semitic stand. At the same time, under the terms of the concordat, Catholic criticism of acts deemed political by the Nazis, could now be regarded as "foreign interference." The great German Catholic Church, at the insistence of Rome, fell silent. In the future all complaints against the Nazis would be channeled through Pacelli. There were some notable exceptions, for example the sermons preached in 1933 by Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber, the Archbishop of Munich, in which he denounced the Nazis for their rejection of the Old Testament as a Jewish text.

The concordat immediately drew the German church into complicity with the Nazis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Anyway, that chunk was pulled out of the middle of the book excerpt. Here is the direct link to it so you guys can read the whole thing. It proves that the Catholic Church and Hitler were very much working together, and that the church "had his back," so to speak, and sanctioned his agenda. Sad, but true.

http://www.reformation.org/hitler_pope.html

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I've watched the rise in vitriol from self-identified humanists and athiests in recent years rather sadly.

I've watched the rise in vitriol from self-identified Christians and Muslims in recent years rather sadly, too. I don't see atheists and humanists organising terrorist actions and massive war campaigns, though, so where are you witnessing the vitriol?

[Lotesse]

And also, allow me to reiterate what I keep saying in one way or the other, what I meant to get across from the beginning in Muslims thread, and that is this: Christianity is utilised by Bush, no? It was utilised by Hitler, too. The Church in Hitler's day did not denounce Hitler but in fact supported him; American Christians in the US today do not denounce Bush and his Christian-themed "war on terror" which is really a war to justify getting oil and political power. If he wanted to get bin Laden, he definitely could have, by now, don't you think? It's easier to keep the threat alive, that way he can justify his righteous war's continuance. NOW - Islam is thwe religion that is utilised by Osama bin Laden! And Mecca DOES denounce the actions of the terrorists, suicide bombers and radical offshoots who spread death and terror in the name of Allah. There are crazies within both Islam and Christianity, who spout things like Kill the Infidel and (from the Christian right & Bush) kill the crazy muslim arabs. The Christian right is more sophisticated with the wording, so as not to blatantly be shown to be what their political & religious message actually is, (in ref. to the wars & etc.)but the message is the same, nonetheless, and it is drummed & pounded into the ears and minds of every American, every day, through the media. Righteous hatred from christians as well as muslims. Intolerance and lies and hypocrisy and justification for mass murder from christians as well as muslims, and both sides in the name of God/Allah. It is the same thing, don't you see? It is the same exact concept.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I thnk it is important here to distinguish claiming Christianity and actually being a Christian.

Exactly. I'll move my comment from another thread over here, since there's now TWO thread splits -

The only instance I've seen of Hitler supporting his atrocities with a verse in the New Testament is when he mentions the verse about Jesus chasing the Jewish moneychangers and sellers of sacrificial animals out of the temple. Hitler apparently takes that verse and bases his policy of killing Jews on it. However, Hitler completely ignores the many instances of Jesus loving other Jews (and even doing the OPPOSITE of killing to one Jew - he raised Lazarus from the dead!) so I hardly think his claim is valid.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

This fellow doesn't seem to be an overly reliable source. According to wikipedia:

In Cornwell's more recent book, The Pontiff in Winter, Cornwell acknowledged that he had erred in his book Hitler’s Pope when he ascribed evil motives to Pius.

Even he admits he was wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Pope

General Middle Earth discussion that isn't confined to one particular book.

Note also this related book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myt...from_the_Nazis

I trust the Rabbi more.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Lief, based on my previous conversations with her and opa about the war, she has stated on more than one occasion that she was aware of the "death" camps during the war. I don't think she was aware of the scale of the persecution, but certainly, she knew that there were disappearances.

Yes, I am sure that she knew of disappearances. I think probably most of Germany knew the Jews were being taken somewhere, but more than that wasn't clear. If the new study you posted a link to catches on and becomes broadly accepted by historians, I will probably accept it (for myself) as a strong evidence that the Germans knew about the Holocaust while it was happening.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

You will understand that given that her husband has just passed away, I will not be pestering her directly about this, though.

Yes, that is totally understandable. I'm really sorry about that, for her and your sake .

Here's a quotation from the Holocaust Museum that should be heeded. I know I've already posted this twice, but I don't think I've heard anyone respond to it, except a little bit brownjenkins.

Originally Posted by United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

The term "Church Struggle" refers to the strained relationship between church and state in Germany in the 1870s and then again during the Nazi regime. Although Nazi policy at first seemed to tolerate church autonomy, it soon became clear that official tolerance of Christian religious groups would last only as long as the churches accepted synchronization--the alignment of the church, along with other areas of society, with Nazi goals. The Roman Catholic and Protestant churches met the Nazi rise to power with attempts to retain control of their respective institutions and the rights of their brethren to worship freely and openly.

It's clear that there was friction between the churches and Hitler. The mainstream German churches did not express approval for Hitler's actions, but actually worked to protect Jews in their churches. We also know that some Christians did object and ended up in concentration or death camps for their choice. Here's information about Hitler's National Socialist Party, and others of Hitler's policies toward Christianity.

Originally Posted by United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

In a further attempt to synchronize religious thought with state policy, the Nazis sought, unsuccessfully, to establish a unified national church. Hitler appointed a Reich Bishop, Ludwig Mueller, who led a "German Christian" movement within the church. Mueller sought to synthesize Nazi ideology and Protestant tradition and to agitate for a "people's church" based on "good Aryan blood." This movement had gained 600,000 adherents by the mid-1930s. The Nazi government also attempted to supplant Christian worship with secular Nazi party celebrations which adopted many symbols of religious ritual but instead glorified the party and the Fuehrer. Efforts were also made to dilute clerical influence on religious instruction in the public schools, as well as to curb the activities and influence the curricula of religious schools.

The Wikipedia article has stated that the concensus of modern historical research at this time is that the German people did NOT know about the Holocaust. We also know they were caught in a web of lies by Hitler. Hitler said Poland attacked Germany and then when they retaliated, all the other Western countries unjustly attacked Germany. The Germans believed they were the injured party, and they had bias toward trusting Hitler because he had restored their country's economy and pride.

The Holocaust Museum resources show that there was tension between Hitler and maintream German churches, and that the Nazi Party embraced clearly anti-Christian policies.

This article's quotation from Wikipedia strongly indicates Hitler was not a Christian, and states that Christianity's being on the decline in Germany helped to strengthen the Nazis.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Despite Germany's long history as the seat of the Holy Roman Empire and the birthplace of the Reformation, Christianity was in a decline during the rise of the Nazi Party. Some of the factors leading to this decline were the after affects of World War I which challenged "traditional" European viewpoints, the decline in political parties backed by the Catholic Church. The decline of the Centre Party Germany was an enabler for the rise of the Nazi Party.

Hitler often adapted elements of Christian theology into his speeches. However he and other Nazi leaders rather subscribed either to a mixture of modern (pseudo-)scientific theories, as Hitler himself did, or to mysticism and occultism, which was especially strong in the SS. Central to both groupings was the belief in German racial superiority.

Note also that the Wikipedia article states that a Protestant group called the Confessing Church were the ones that attempted to assassinate Hitler.

Here's an article that takes quotations from several history books and analyzes Hitler's "Christianity." It comes to the conclusion that he was not a Christian: http://www.geocities.com/mikem2u/hitler.html

Here are some quotations the article cites from Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

The National Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably...the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year of 800.
The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany.

The National Church declares that to it, and therefore to the German nation, it has been decided that the Fuehrer's Mein Kampf is the greatest of all documents. It...not only contains the greatest but it embodies the purest and truest ethics for the present and future life of our nation.

The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of saints.

On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.

On the day of its foundation, the Christian Cross must be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels...and it must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika. (Shirer, pp. 332-333.)

Here is an excerpt from the article and some cited quotes from Hitler.

Now it's true that in his youth Hitler must have had, at least for a time, some kind of Christian belief, since he tells us that as a boy he had a passing interest in becoming a clergyman. But that ended. At some time in his life Hitler apparently turned completely against Christianity.

Yes, he did make public claims to Christianity even while he was in power and persecuting Christians. But those public professions were simply lies. He made them in order to win the support of the German people, but in reality he wanted to do away with Christianity as it had hitherto been known and pervert it into a mere facade for Nazism and worship of himself as the ultimate leader. In Hitler's own words:


"[Making peace with the church] won't stop me from stamping out Christianity in Germany, root and branch. One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." (J. S. Conway, The Nazi Persecution of the Churches, quoted in Lutzer, pp. 113-114.)
"One cannot break the Church over one's knee. It has to be left to rot like a gangrenous limb...but the healthy youth belong to us." (Quote of Hitler in Lutzer, p. 130.)

Lutzer was the author of "Hitler's Cross."