Hurricane Katrina

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Get well, Spock. The ability to feel things strongly is a gift

Indeed. I am working on that. Thanks.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I guess it could have been better done .

OK, to quote Master Po, "even an old blind man shouldn't be punished for the same crime twice."

[Lief Erikson]

Don't feel too badly; we've all put our feet in our mouths at times . I am very, very strongly opposed to the massive waves of guilt and misery that can follow such mistakes.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Spock

OK, to quote Master Po, "even an old blind man shouldn't be punished for the same crime twice."

Life teaches us to be less harsh with ourselves and with others. ~ Master Po

[Tessar]

Back on topic please guys .

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Spock

THIS FROM OUR ATTORNEY GENERAL TO ALL GOVN'T EMPLOYEES AND APPLIES TO US HERE ON THE MOOT AS INDIVIDUALS.

Subject: *** Information Technology Announcement - Scam Alert - Please read ***


VITA's Security Services has received multiple reports of individuals using fake Hurricane Katrina donation and relief web sites. These sites are being used to create false donation foundations to gain money, capture usernames and passwords, and lead you to install spyware or trojan software on your machine. Several websites/domains in question include: katrinahelp.com , katrinarelief.com, and katrinacleanup.com.

But the site http://www.katrina.com/ is actually legit. It actually belongs to some chick in Virginia named Katrina who used it to advertise her web design business but after the hurricane several porn companies offered her half a mill to buy the domain name. She turned it down (amazingly enough) and instead turned it into an information open house site. Quite extensive really. Its where people can go if they are looking for lost relatives among other things. Check it out.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

But the site http://www.katrina.com/ is actually legit. It actually belongs to some chick in Virginia named Katrina who used it to advertise her web design business but after the hurricane several porn companies offered her half a mill to buy the domain name. She turned it down (amazingly enough) and instead turned it into an information open house site.

*heart warms*

You GO, girl!! You ROCK!! GOOD for you!! Slam the door in the face of those greedy bullies!!

[Lief Erikson]

That's a cool story .

[Ben]

I can't understand why it's taking so long to help those people. This storm hit on Monday, and it seems that serious aid is not starting to arrive until today. It's incompetence on a frightening scale. Remember, FEMA is also the agency that's supposed to deal with terrorist attacks. If they couldn't adequately respond to a disaster that was predicted for years and to which they had several days' warning, how is our nation possibly prepared for a surprise nuclear attack on one of our cities? They've had four years to work out the kinks in the system!

Hurricane Katrina is a tragedy that no human could have stopped. The botched rescue and relief operation, however, is a second tragedy that is entirely of our own making. Don't get me wrong - the individual police officers and rescue workers have been doing a superhuman job, but they have been acting without much coordination and without enough backup. Even President Bush has admitted that the situation has been so far "unacceptable." Unacceptable? Try appalling, ineffective, sickening, un-American.

Some government officials have insinuated that the residents who are trapped are there on their own volition. That's an inane and deeply troubling sentiment. Only people with cars could evacuate. New Orleans has a 23% poverty rate; poor people don't have cars and have to rely on public transportation. They were largely shepherded into the Superdome without much thought or left to their own devices. Where was the National Guard when hundreds of thousands of people lacked transportation to evacuate? Where were the buses and boats and cars and military vehicles? The government could've gotten many more of those people out beforehand. You always have the stubborn types who insist on riding out storms, and those who couldn't bear to leave their possessions, but the vast majority simply had no way to get out without government help. How did anyone expect them to comply with the evacuation order? No one should be left behind on account of economic status or education level.

We sent aid to tsunami victims halfway across the globe very quickly. Somehow, it's been 5 days and we still don't have the situation in our own country even remotely under control. The blame doesn't belong to other nations - countries and groups all over the world including the UK, Germany, Japan, NATO, and even Sri Lanka (still recovering from the tsunami) have donated or pledged aid. Let's not use this occasion to criticize our foreign aid operations or allies.

I've had a lot of problems with the news media recently, but they've done an outstanding job in covering the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. I can't fathom how camera crews have been able to get to the Superdome for days, and yet food and supplies were unable to arrive. Relief is (maybe) starting in earnest now, but there's still many trapped in New Orleans. Someone (the president? the head of FEMA? head of homeland security?) just has to take charge and get the supplies and transportation needed for these people. If CNN can get there, so can rescuers.

[Curubethion]

Originally Posted by bmilder

I can't fathom how camera crews have been able to get to the Superdome for days, and yet food and supplies were unable to arrive. Relief is (maybe) starting in earnest now, but there's still many trapped in New Orleans. Someone (the president? the head of FEMA? head of homeland security?) just has to take charge and get the supplies and transportation needed for these people. If CNN can get there, so can rescuers.

Yeah...I think it's because the media has the $$.

[Spock]

The Tsunami victims didn't get their aid in 5 days.
The president isn't Kreskin and couldn't know exactly what would be needed and where.
Assets could not be put in harms way and had to wait until the storm passed and then assembled.
P.S. The city and state should have had an emergency plan in place to blend with the federal help but it seems they didn't. They just sat in a city built below sea level for years and laughed off natures attempts to wipe them off the map. This time around nature won. The improvements needed could have been in place if they had taken the threat seriously all these years.

[Spock]

I realize there are few of us on this board who grew up with this mans music but he is a legend and so this story.

September 02, 2005 7:46 PM EDT
BATON ROUGE, La. - Fats Domino and his family spent two days with Louisiana State University's quarterback after being rescued from the floodwaters of Hurricane Katrina, then moved on.

"I'm not sure where they are headed, but I just feel better knowing that they are OK," an LSU news release quoted quarterback JaMarcus Russell as saying.

The 77-year-old R&B singer and his family are friends with the family of Russell's girlfriend, sports information director Michael Bonnette said.

"It was kind of a friend of a friend thing," Bonnette said.

Domino apparently was rescued by boat on Monday. After that, Bonnette said, he was brought to the Superdome, where he eventually was put on a bus to an evacuee triage center in LSU's basketball arena.

Domino, who had checked in under his given name of Antoine Domino, was reunited there with his family. Then he, his family and a dozen other people from New Orleans went to Russell's apartment just off the LSU campus.

Russell was on the lookout for them and finally made contact with them Wednesday night, Bonnette said.

The news release quoted Domino as thanking Russell and saying, "Tell the people of New Orleans that I'm safe. I wish I was able to still be there with them, but I hope to see them soon."

The quarterback told Bonnette that, all told, about 20 people had been staying in the two-bedroom apartment. Russell said he had spent most of the two days helping them with errands that included grocery trips and a 2 a.m. pharmacy run to get medicine for Domino.

Domino and the others had no set destination when they left, Bonnette said.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I have to agree with Spock. The state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans bears a good part of the responsibility and the blame for not being better prepared and ignoring warnings 3 years back that told them the levies were incapable of withstanding anything greater then a catagory 3 hurricane. Considering the area they are in, and below sea level, they failed in their own abilities to protect themselves. Not everything is the fault, or resposibility of the federal government.

Originally Posted by bmilder

If CNN can get there, so can rescuers.

CNN, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS, and every other news agency, was already in place before the storm hit, and all they have to worry about is there camera equipment and mics. They don't have to prepare millions of food supplies and care packages for millions of people.

Everyone would like to snap their fingers and all this misery go away. Not that easy.

Btw Ben, the storm hit on Monday. The levies broke on Tuesday, so it has actually been three day, not five.

[Tessar]

I'm with SGH and Spock on this one. I think most of the blame lies squarely on New Orlean's shoulders.

That doesn't make it any less sad, of course, but I don't feel there's much blame to actually be placed on the government/president's shoulders.

[Ben]

I believe it's a head-in-sand, close-your-eyes mentality to think that the federal relief and preparation efforts have gone as well as they could have. A quick check of your favorite news outlet, from FOX to CNN to ABC, has shown images of people without food, without adequate shelter, without working bathrooms, of riots. Of course the problem can't be solved by the snap of a finger, but that doesn't mean that serious mistakes were not made. Why has aid taken so long in the richest, most powerful country in the world? It's mind-boggling.

Again, the hurricane itself was no one's fault. Of course I don't blame President Bush or Governor Blanco or Mayor Nagin or any other human being for this force of nature. However, I think it's a little strange to argue that President Bush and his administration bear no blame for the chaos in New Orleans. I don't think they're the sole culprit, but from what I've read, the federal government has been asleep at the wheel.

Here are some specific problems I have with Bush's personal handling of the disaster. Can anyone honestly tell me this is the proper way for the president to behave?

• Bush stayed on his record-long vacation until returning to Washington on Wednesday - a day after the levees had broken and flooded New Orleans. Who vacations when New Orleans is dying? Ronald Reagan or Dwight Eisenhower would have immediately gone back to Washington DC or to Louisiana to meet with officials.
• On Tuesday, Bush kept to his schedule. He had a birthday celebration with John McCain, fiddled around on a guitar backstage with a famous musician in California, and gave stump speeches about Medicare and Iraq. By this time ,it was clear that we had a national disaster on our hands. Why didn't he immediately stop what he was doing and head to DC?
• Bush said that "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." There have been numerous articles in magazines and reports from his own agencies discussing just how likely that possibility was. Anyone have an explanation for this statement? Either Bush wasn't prepped fully about this disaster, or he's purposefully stretching the truth - I don't know what's worse.

Does that sound like a leader? Does this sound like the guy who rallied the nation after 9/11? Does anyone think that this man famous for his resolve in the face of national disaster has been doing anything of the sort for the hurricane? I don't like many of Bush's policies, but he's still the president of the United States. I expect him to be out there, well, leading! I know he can't pull a rabbit out of his hat, but the president and his crack team of advisors shold have been on the problem from the very beginning. Where was the urgency?

Please, Tessar, or anyone. Please explain how Bush has done a good job on leading the nation through what is possibly the most devastating catastrophe to befall the nation under his watch. The country re-elected him because of his strong leadership skills. I'm a little confused on what you guys mean with your Bush defense. Are you saying that he's done a good job this week or that the president doesn't need to lead the nation through one of the worst disasters in decades?

Mike Parker, former head of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the agency that handles the infrastructure of the nation's waterways, and a former Republican congressman, said that if flood-control efforts had been fully funded by the administration, "Levees would have been higher, levees would have been bigger, there would have been other pumps put in

Here are the specific problems I have with the Bush administration's policies and relief efforts regarding the hurricane in New Orleans. (Keep in mind that FEMA said in 2001 that a hurricane hitting New Orleans was one of the top three likeliest, most catastrophic disasters, along with a terrorist attack on NYC):

• In June, the Bush administration cut $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of Engineers, a 44 percent reduction, and the biggest one-year drop ever. The cuts meant that contracts couldn't be awarded to local engineering firms, and the agency had to go ahead with a hiring freeze. (Source: New Orleans CityBusiness)
• The administration cancelled the Clinton-backed flood control program to preserve and restore the wetlands between New Orleans and the gulf.
• Funds were apparently diverted from hurricane-prevention to that war of choice in Iraq. Last year, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune newspaper: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."
• Nearly 40% of the Louisiana National Guard is in Iraq. National guard equipment, including high-water vehicles, is in Iraq. The administration has said this didn't affect the work, but LA and MS had to call for specialists and equipment from other states.
• The Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project budget was drained by Congress this year from $36.5 million to $10.4 million, at the request of the administration, which wasn't enough to do any construction.
• The forced resignation of Parker after he questioned the administration's policies of underfunding flood-control projects

Why were these projects not funded? I don't know. Maybe they thought they were getting rid of pork. Maybe it was to pay for Iraq. The Bush administration has had notice since 2001 that a hurricane in New Orleans was likely and catastrophic, and yet they've been cutting up budgets. All I know is, policies have consequences. Grover Norquist, a top Republican strategist, famously wants to cut government down to the size where it can "drown in a bathtub." If the government goes down the drain, a lot of other people can drown too.

Now, I'm not entirely clear on how disaster management is divided between the feds, states and cities. I was under the impression that the federal government, and especially FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) took the lead in these cases because I remember hearing about them in other natural disasters. Why else would people care about President Bush's terrorism prevention programs if the federal government didn't have a heavy say in preparation and relief efforts for disasters? I mean, disasters all happen in individual states and cities. Spock, Tessar, and SGH seem to think New Orleans bears much of the blame. Where did you read this? I mean, I've been following this pretty carefully and I haven't read how New Orleans made a wrong choice in terms of funding their hurricane buffers. Tessar - please point me to data to back up for your claims, and then we can see how the federal government and the city government stack up using actual numbers and budgets.

Here's the lead editorial of the Washington Times from 9/2. Keep in mind that the Washington Times ed board is as conservative and Republican as you can get:

The government must treat the battlefield of Katrina as it would any other field of engagement: Protect and provide for the innocent and eliminate the enemy, and do it now, before we lose New Orleans. Send the 40,000 troops Gov. Kathleen Blanco has requested... We expected to see, many hours ago, the president we saw standing atop the ruin of the World Trade Center, rallying a dazed country to action. We're pleased he finally caught a ride home from his vacation, but he risks losing the one trait his critics have never dented: His ability to lead, and be seen leading... But he must crack heads, if bureaucratic heads need cracking, to get the food, water and medicine to the people crying for help in New Orleans and on the Mississippi coast.

If these guys "play politics" it's in favor of the Republicans. Always. When a GOP mouthpiece blasts Bush's handling of something, you know it's truly bad.

Personally, I think there should be a bipartisan congressional inquiry into the preparedness and response to Katrina, as some Republicans and Democrats have suggested. If officials and agencies didn't have their act together, I want to know who specifically cut the needed funds and who didn't have a plan. I don't care if it's Democratic Mayor Nagin or Republican President Bush, or the entire Democratic Party - whoever sold the city of New Orleans short should have to answer for themselves. If it turns out Democrats bear most of the blame for the botched operations, I'll excoriate them. I promise. We just need to know what went wrong with our response.

Btw Ben, the storm hit on Monday. The levies broke on Tuesday, so it has actually been three day, not five.

The massive hurricane, hailed for days as near-unstoppable catasophre, hit at around 6 am Monday morning. There were serious problems even before the levees broke. My post was made 7 PM today. That's more than four and a half days, so I rounded up. Sorry, I should've been more specific when it was just a half day.

More tomorrow.

[HOBBIT]

Also, the FEMA director did not know about the convention center until yesterday, even though it was on TV all week on all the networks.

I read today that most nursing homes were forgotten about and not evacuated or rescured.

Condi Rice was spotted going to Spamalot on Tuesday.

[Spock]

Bm, you've obviously got a bias that fact and statement cannot change and so I shall not even try.

[Insidious Rex]

Fact? Ha Id say you guys pretty much handed him a softball and he rightfully blasted it out of the park. To blame the city of New Orleans for all this? Come on... The federal response has been a joke. Even they admit that. We had people on the ground in south east asia after the Tsunami in 24 HOURS and we cant do that here? Frighteningly embarrassing. People are dieing in an american city like something out of some third world african refugee camp for gods sake. Maybe we should have asked the UN for help since we couldnt handle it?

But Im willing to give Bush some leeway on this. Killer hurricanes dont hit New Orleans that often and he had his focus in other places (although it IS almost criminal that some of those funds that could have gone to the leeve building actually went to pay for tax cuts for the rich...). But hindsight is 20/20. Unfortunately for him we DID get a killer hurricane that hit New Orleans and now he has serious egg in his face for cutting funding to what may have been termed "pork" a month ago but now is clearly priorty one stuff. If the response had been quicker and better you could explain away the fund cutting. But of course now this is going to plague him and you will hear plenty of shouts about the current administration not caring about a "poor black sinful" city. Its already started in fact. I dont really believe thats true myself but hes sure doing a good job making it look that way.

Now if only we could put as much energy into really helping people that need it as we do in assigning blame...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by BBC News

[President Bush] praised the efforts of relief and rescue workers, before adding: "Despite their best efforts, the magnitude of responding to a crisis over a disaster area that is larger than the size of Great Britain has created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities.

I know, bmilder, that you talk about problems not being possible to solve in "the snap of a finger." But really, let's try to keep the scale of the disaster in mind. It is completely unprecedented in the United States, and

Originally Posted by bmilder

The massive hurricane, hailed for days as near-unstoppable catasophre,

a few days warning isn't going to change things much.

There probably was some incompetence in people thinking it just "wasn't going to happen," when the scenario was being examined. I don't know how much of that goes right up to the high levels of the Bush Administration, and how much was, again, "local bureaucracy".

Originally Posted by BBC News

"We will complete the evacuation as quickly and safely as possible, we will not let criminals prey on the vulnerable and we will not allow bureaucracy to get in the way of saving lives," said Mr Bush.

Correspondents say his comments about bureaucracy are a side-swipe at local officialdom, which has been heavily critical about the federal government's actions in recent days.

Originally Posted by bmilder

Nearly 40% of the Louisiana National Guard is in Iraq. National guard equipment, including high-water vehicles, is in Iraq. The administration has said this didn't affect the work, but LA and MS had to call for specialists and equipment from other states.

Just remember, once again, the scale of the tragedy. An area greater than Great Britain is in an instant transformed into, as Insidious Rex very accurately puts it, "a third world refugee camp." They're doing their best to pull their forces together, in the meantime.

Originally Posted by BBC News

Mr Bush said the 7,000 extra troops, including paratroopers and marines, would arrive in the area over next 24 to 72 hours to supplement the 4,000 regular troops and thousands of National Guard soldiers already working in the disaster area.

Their main priority, he said, would be to maintain law and order, and assist in aid and evacuation efforts.

The Bush Administration is doing its utmost to bring stability to this situation. There was a slow start, but the President is leading.

Originally Posted by BBC News

Mr Bush has signed off a $10.5bn emergency spending package approved by Congress.

In his address, he said: "This is a down payment on what will be a sustained federal commitment to our fellow citizens along the Gulf Coast."

Originally Posted by bmilder

The Bush administration has had notice since 2001 that a hurricane in New Orleans was likely and catastrophic, and yet they've been cutting up budgets.

"Likely"? This you will have to back up. When was the Bush Administration told that a massive hurricane in New Orleans was likely? I know the scenario was considered, but you'll have to explain your use of the word "likely".

In my opinion, the scenario was not considered likely. There were some serious mistakes made, though like you, bmilder, I don't know how much to point at the federal government and how much to point at the bureaucracy.

I will briefly point something out, however. An important point, in my opinion.

The National Geographic movie "Cyclone" was released in the year 1995, during Clinton's presidency. It outlined a scenario precisely like what has actually occurred. It said that a hurricane of the level of Andrew would overrun inadequate levies and swamp New Orleans, if it hit that area. It's been reported on the news that the surge of the water that was occurring because of Katrina's winds did mean it made landfall with the force of a category 5 hurricane.

The movie I watched graphically showed animation of water near the rooftops of some buildings and described the death trap that New Orleans could become for many thousands of people. That National Geographic presentation has been constantly in my mind during this catastrophe, because what has actually happened is exactly the "nightmare scenario" that the film portrayed.

This warning was made during Clinton's presidency. The problem was not started with the Bush Administration, but is embedded in the city itself. Of course you can argue that the Bush Administration added to the problem, but it cannot be argued that it is "primarily responsible," or "grossly negligent," in any way that previous governments weren't. This needs to be kept in mind as blame is assigned.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Now if only we could put as much energy into really helping people that need it as we do in assigning blame...

Indeed. But I was gladdened yesterday when watching the news, and I saw all the effort that was being put into relief efforts. The Red Cross and other places are having many offers of money, water or other kinds of supplies.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

it IS almost criminal that some of those funds that could have gone to the leeve building actually went to pay for tax cuts for the rich

Those "relieve the rich" laws that have been passed have been good for the economy and for society as a whole. When money comes to the rich, they can afford to expand businesses and companies. When they expand businesses and companies, employment rates rise. The availability of a good, working job rises for the average man. This is a Republican approach to the problem however, so I can understand your disagreeing with it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think another thing we need to remember in what resulted in such a slow respons also, was after the hurricane hit New Orleans, it was reported and thought that they had "dodged a bullet". Also, after the levies broke, there was only one way in and one way out, and that was by air.