UFOs

[Spock]

We live on a hunk of rock and metal that circles a humdrum star that is one of 400 billion other stars that make up the Milky Way Galaxy which is one of billions of other galaxies which make up a universe which may be one of a very large number, perhaps an infinite number, of other universes. That is a perspective on human life and our culture that is well worth pondering.

If we consider the statistics of one, our own case--and take a typical time from the origin of a planetary system to the development of a technical civilization to be 4.6 billion years--what follows? We would not expect civilizations on different worlds to evolve in lock step. Some would reach technical intelligence more quickly, some more slowly, and-- doubtless--some never. But the Milky Way is filled with second- and third-generation stars (that is, those with heavy elements) as old as 10 billion years.

So let's imagine two curves: The first is the probable timescale to the evolution of technical intelligence. It starts out very low; by a few billion years it may have a noticeable value; by 5 billion years, it's something like 50 percent; by 10 billion years, maybe it's approaching 100 percent. The second curve is the ages of Sun-like stars, some of which are very young-- they're being born right now--some of which are as old as the Sun, some of which are 10 billion years old.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

on this planet: dolphins and porpoises, orang utan, gorilla, chimpanzee, bonobo, some higher parrots and macaws, and to a degree cats. also, before their extinction, the dromaeosaurs certainly were sentient

Have they made it anywere near as far? And I do note that most of those are endangered. And what's a bonobo?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beor

I just think that with everything out there, it is arrogant for us as a race of people to think that we are the only ones. I dont mean any insult by it, it just is. I say it because the ammount of self importance that it takes to ignore the cosmos as a souce of life is a lot (if that makes any sense). I honestly dont really think that ufos are real, but I do think that there are others out there somewhere that are intelligent.

I still don't think it is necessarily arrogant.

If we say, "Hey, we're so cool and there's just no way anyone could possibly be as cool as we are - we just rock!" then that would be arrogant.

If, however, we say, "Well, so far we just don't see any evidence of other intelligent beings on our level, even though we've been searching for transmissions and looking for signs, so maybe we're the only ones! After all, the odds are simply astronomical (to use a phrase related to the topic ) that evolution could produce things like us even once; expecting more than once is beyond astronomical!" - then I don't think that's arrogant; that's just a plain and unbiased observation of available facts. Do you see what I mean?

[Spock]

Indeed it may be ignorant ( resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence)
as opposed to arrogance.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

After all, the odds are simply astronomical (to use a phrase related to the topic ) that evolution could produce things like us even once; expecting more than once is beyond astronomical!" - then I don't think that's arrogant

The arrogance comes in the "like us" mentality you have. But thinking that theres no other "intelligent" life in the universe isnt necessarily arrogant, just illogical. If you run the numbers its a virtual guarantee.

Even if only a micro percentage of a micro percentage of planets in the universe exist under conditions condusive to the development of intelligent life then yer still talking about a number that would be longer then this entire post. Now we may not have all the variables yet but you cant just declare its an impossibility. Thats just plain incorrect.

[Rían]

Spock - we are ALL currently ignorant about the existence of aliens, then, according to your definition. There's nothing wrong with that type of ignorance.

IRex - by "like us", I meant "intelligent at or above our level". There's NO arrogance involved. It would be arrogant if I said we're the best thing that ever existed and ever could exist, and no other being could ever be better, but I never said that.

Nor is it necessarily illogical to think there's no other intelligent life around. I seriously doubt your number claim. And I never declared it an impossibility - I said SO FAR we haven't seen any evidence, so MAYBE we're the only ones around with our level of intelligence. No arrogance there - just plain, unbiased observation and conclusion.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Spock

We live on a hunk of rock and metal that circles a humdrum star that is one of 400 billion other stars that make up the Milky Way Galaxy which is one of billions of other galaxies which make up a universe which may be one of a very large number, perhaps an infinite number, of other universes. That is a perspective on human life and our culture that is well worth pondering.

It's certainly a fashionable perspective.

I think a more accurate perspective is that we live on a planet that's amazingly and intricately balanced in hundreds of ways, so much that if even one of them changes a bit, like the angle of the planet, all life would cease to exist on the planet. And on this planet are incredibly beautiful and complex living creatures, like hummingbirds and horses and butterflies and rolly-polly bugs, and amazingly complex human beings. We're surrounded by landscapes of stunning beauty and variability, each delicately balanced, from glaciers to rain forests to oceans to giant sequoia forests to deserts to meadows, and tied together into a amazingly balanced functioning whole. We're surrounded by billions of other stars that are breathtakingly beautiful and complex in their own right, and we are blessed with minds that can comprehend and analyze both actual, solid existing things as well as abstract concepts like poetry and the possible existence of other intelligent life.

[Spock]

[QUOTE=RÃ*an]Spock - we are ALL currently ignorant about the existence of aliens, then, according to your definition. There's nothing wrong with that type of ignorance.QUOTE]

Precisely my point.

BTW, it's Websters definition. Accurate to a fault.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by me9996

well, god said (in the bible) that he made the human race and let his only son get killed over us, why would he make aleins? If he did they'd just go to... a place I'd rather not name and so he wouldn't.

Still confused? If so, never mind...

There's no reason I can see why aliens would automatically go to hell, but RÃ*an expounded on this quite sufficiently.

As for "why" he might make aliens, let me remind you that there are millions of species on this planet that we don't know why he made.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by me9996

Sounds like a howlusanation... (my spelling is bad!)

Ha-lu-ci-na-ti-on. There's a perfect cure for bad spelling, it's called a dictionary. There's a reason why I keep three of them next to my computer.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

And as people are fond of saying, "The surest sign of intelligent life on other planets is that they haven't tried to contact us."

I knew it wouldn't be long until somebody mentioned that quote. (Because if you hadn't, I would have )

Considering the vastness of the universe, statistically spoken it may very well be that somewhere out there there is life, and possibly even life that has reached a level of intelligence that can be compared to ours. However, also considering the vastness of the universe, we might never meet throughout our race's lifetime! I'm guessing the chances of there being intelligent life outside our planet are larger than actually meeting with them. And the chances that we might understand one another are even slimmer.

[Butterbeer]

don't they go to the movies?

[Spock]

l m a o, good one.

[Khamûl]

I have to lean to the side that there is life (more than likely intelligent) somewhere else in the universe. What follows is along the lines of what Spock posted by Carl Sagan.

Take a look at this picture:



This is the Hubble Ultra Deep Field. Almost everything there is a galaxy. (There are at least two "local" stars -- you can pick them out by the cross-shaped lines coming out of them.) This picture is a small sampling of the sky (about 1/10 the diameter of the full moon). If this is a tiny sample, think of how many galaxies there are in the sky in total. And if every galaxy is made up of a billion stars... In my mind, there must be something somewhere else. This picture also makes me realize how truly insignificant I am.

Now whether anyone else has contacted us... I'm still undecided.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Beor

I think that with all the stars and galaxies and what have you that if there werent other races of people out there, then it would be a pretty big waste of space. I would imagine that God or whoever, would just leave what they look like up to the individual evolution of whatever planet they ended up on. Also, I think it is arrogant as a race to think we are the only ones here, also, to think we are the brightest. Beor out.

What he said... except without the god bit.

[inked]

Try CS Lewis' OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET, PERELANDRA, and THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH for a view of the Universe that is capable of embracing the vastnesses of the Solar System and multiplicity of beings. And recall that it was quite well known that the size of the earth in relation to the cosmos was that of an infinitesimal point in medieval astronomy.

Flatland exists in knowledge of history and not just geography or astronomy!

BoP, I am delighted to see you back on the board! Did you just get back from an intergalactic tour or are you messing with the infinite improbability drive again?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by me9996

Have they made it anywere near as far? And I do note that most of those are endangered. And what's a bonobo?

depends on what you mean by 'as far', intelligence is not measured by technology, intelligence is measured by sentience and cognitive ability. dolphins and porpoises are, IMO much more intelligent than man, and a bonobo is the corret name for that sepcies that is often erroneously called a pygmy chimpanzee

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Khamûl

Take a look at this picture:

beautiful!!

This picture also makes me realize how truly insignificant I am.

Oh, you men! Size is not important - or at least it's not the only indicator, or even the most significant indicator, of importance! Remember that Disney movie long ago, the Sword in the Stone, and the battle of the magicians, and Merlin turned himself into a germ and beat the big monster?

Why would it make you come to the conclusion you're truly insignificant? What is your reasoning to support that conclusion? (unless you're only talking truly insignificant as far as the relative number of atoms contained in your body ... but that's not important, IMO)

[Lief Erikson]

Size . . . is relative. Strictly relative. Extremely strictly relative. I read in biology that each of us is like an entire Planet Earth in and of him or herself. Each of us hosts billions and billions of living creatures. To them a single hair on my arm is like a mighty mountain, packed with other organisms that live differently and eat differently. A week or two ago, in my prayers I thanked him for making people so massive.

Size is dependent upon perspective. From the perspective of an ant, what do you think a rolly polly bug would be like? Enormous. Far larger then an elephant would be to us. A monolithic creature that roams the same world as the ant.

I don't think that we really experience the same world as the ant. Imagine a world full of craters and hills at every turn, with massive tunnels and caves everywhere and blades of grass the size of skyscrapers, a place where a single raindrop is the size of a boulder and can make you struggle for your life (not to mention your way of thinking and reason for existing would be utterly different).

Intelligence is also relative. We have been made "a little lower then the angels," but our intelligence is lower then the meanest insect when compared to God's. Our intellects, on the other hand, when compared to those of every other known species of living organisms, are monstrous in comparison.

Our bodies are huge. They are huge and miniscule. They are both at the same time. There is no argument for our being insignificant .

[Khamûl]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Oh, you men! Size is not important - or at least it's not the only indicator, or even the most significant indicator, of importance! Remember that Disney movie long ago, the Sword in the Stone, and the battle of the magicians, and Merlin turned himself into a germ and beat the big monster?

Actually, I do remember that movie, and since you mention it, I have a vague recollection of that part. But's it's also been at least 13 or 14 years since I last saw that movie.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Why would it make you come to the conclusion you're truly insignificant? What is your reasoning to support that conclusion? (unless you're only talking truly insignificant as far as the relative number of atoms contained in your body ... but that's not important, IMO)

Just the fact that there are so many galaxies out there and billions of stars and I am but one of seven billion people on a chunk of rock around one star in one galaxy. It just gives me a little perspective. Not to say that one person can't make a difference in human existence. I guess I'm looking at it in more of a literal way (kinda like your "I only have a few billion atoms" example). I'm reminded of a Calvin and Hobbes strip where Calvin looks up into the night sky and yells, "I'M SIGNIFICANT!" He pauses for a minute and then adds, "...screamed the dust speck."

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Khamûl

Just the fact that there are so many galaxies out there and billions of stars and I am but one of seven billion people on a chunk of rock around one star in one galaxy. It just gives me a little perspective. Not to say that one person can't make a difference in human existence. I guess I'm looking at it in more of a literal way (kinda like your "I only have a few billion atoms" example). I'm reminded of a Calvin and Hobbes strip where Calvin looks up into the night sky and yells, "I'M SIGNIFICANT!" He pauses for a minute and then adds, "...screamed the dust speck."

I can't repeat any better here what I said in my post immediately above. I will add to it, though .

Another thing I don't understand is how you can be a Christian and think that you're not significant. God has called us co-creators with him.

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

Impressive. Most impressive.

His son died on the cross for you.

Originally Posted by Paul the Apostle

If we have died in him, we shall also rise with him. If we have suffered with him, we shall also be heirs with him.

Heirs with him. (looks greedy)

Streets of gold. (looks very greedy) Bother inflation .