Christ in Middle Earth

[Attalus]

I would add Beren to that list. Not Christ-like, but definitely Imitatio Christi.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I would add Beren to that list. Not Christ-like, but definitely Imitatio Christi.

Perhaps Hurin also.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

It amounts to their behavior, sacrifices and deeds they commited for the good of others and Beleriand.

But, SGH, though their deeds may have some Christ-like qualities (and I'd like to know which deeds you're referring to), they didn't have a quality specific to Christ Himself. For instance: Aragorn had prophecies said about him, just like Christ. Gandalf died and was born again, just like Christ. Frodo carries on himself the burden of all ME, just like Christ. But the other people you referred to simply BEHAVE IN A GOODLY MANNER, IMO this doesn't make a comparison with Christ hold water. See what I mean?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Is it only in ME or does Eru count!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

But, SGH, though their deeds may have some Christ-like qualities (and I'd like to know which deeds you're referring to), they didn't have a quality specific to Christ Himself. For instance: Aragorn had prophecies said about him, just like Christ. Gandalf died and was born again, just like Christ. Frodo carries on himself the burden of all ME, just like Christ. But the other people you referred to simply BEHAVE IN A GOODLY MANNER, IMO this doesn't make a comparison with Christ hold water. See what I mean?

I do see what you mean Beren, but we can measure this at different levels I think. We could say that some characters were more Christ-like than others. Look at Finrod for instance. Here is a character that was very nearly perfect in comparison to others of the First Age. Someone that was wise and powerful, yet kind and selfless. He sacrificed his life to save another. Is this not Christ-like?

[Attalus]

Also, Beren died and was re-born, sort of. He was sacrificial and kept his word, and he was the means by which the salvation of the Elves (i.e., their return to Aman) could eventually come about. Eärendil was the final agent, but without Beren it wouldn't have been possibe.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

He sacrificed his life to save another. Is this not Christ-like?

He sacrificed for ONE PERSON. The sacrifices of Frodo and Aragorn (not to mention Earendil) were made to save A LOT OF PEOPLE! (mankind, if you will).

Originally Posted by Attalus

Also, Beren died and was re-born, sort of. He was sacrificial and kept his word, and he was the means by which the salvation of the Elves (i.e., their return to Aman) could eventually come about.

But, again, Beren sacrificed for ONE PERSON: Luthien. His being reborn is NOT Christ-like as he came back just to be with Luthien, while Gandalf (as with Christ) came back for some time to show that he's above Death and to help others.

Originally Posted by Attalus

Eärendil was the final agent, but without Beren it wouldn't have been possibe.

As to that, the Virgin Mary was an indirect participant in the process of salvation (and you can say to some extent that salvation wouldn't have been possible without her) but she's not Christ, is she?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes, but let's not forget that their actions went beyond that. But for Finrod Beren, and Luthien's efforts, the rest of the free people would not have realized that Morgoth was not unassailable. So they were instrumental in the outcome of Morgoth's overthrow, if you look at the big picture.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

So they were instrumental in the outcome of Morgoth's overthrow, if you look at the big picture.

They weren't instrumental enough, IMHO. At least not as Earendil was.

PLUS, even if they were, that takes us back to the original question: why are there many Christ figures in ME?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

They weren't instrumental enough, IMHO. At least not as Earendil was.

Yes, but had it not been for their deeds, Earendil would not have been able to do what he did.

PLUS, even if they were, that takes us back to the original question: why are there many Christ figures in ME?

As I said before, I think that is because we see so many acceptionally good characters throughout this story and throughout the Ages.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Yes, but had it not been for their deeds, Earendil would not have been able to do what he did.

No Earendil would just not have gone to Valinor with the Silmaril. Bearing the Silmaril didn't grant him special access. It was the fact that he had come on behalf of Men and Elves, which he could have done without the Silmaril!

[inked]

The reason, I think, that we see so many figures with Christ-like qualities in ME is that they are preludes to the theme of Eru in time, ultimately worked out in fully realized humanity in Christ and set among the eternal for their co-creation with God of that reality in their time ans space and situations. Given Tolkein's theory of eucatastrophe, they anticipate the Eucatastrophe, thereby participating in it priorly by Grace just as we may post-Eucatastrophe by the same mode. Remember St. Paul's remark that "God has not left Himself without witness." This included, IMHO, not only the world of nature but the world of mankind - imperfectly recognized or followed gleams of the Divine Plan falling on humanity (Elves - the arts/intellect, Hobbits - the social/individual, Dwarves - the material body/desires, and Humans - the unity in all its realizations). All IMHO, of course.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

No Beren would just not have gone to Valinor with the Silmaril. Bearing the Silmaril didn't grant him special access. It was the fact that he had come on behalf of Men and Elves, which he could have done without the Silmaril!

I think you mean Earedil, TD

Baring the Silmaril may not have granted him special access, but it certianly was helpful probably. It gave the Valar the incentive to intiate the War of Wrath, attempt to retrieve the other Silmarils, and overthrow Morgoth. Think of it as a chain of events where several contributed to a common cause by the act of their own individual good deeds

[Attalus]

Yes, and being Christ-like is the Christian ideal, not being Christ Himself. That is too much to ask for, and might even be thought blasphemous.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I think you mean Earedil, TD

Baring the Silmaril may not have granted him special access, but it certianly was helpful probably. It gave the Valar the incentive to intiate the War of Wrath, attempt to retrieve the other Silmarils, and overthrow Morgoth. Think of it as a chain of events where several contributed to a common cause by the act of their own individual good deeds

I agree that it was probably helpul but it was his words that persuaded the Valar to start the War of the Wrath, no the Silmaril. I think that he could have gone to Valinor and being halfelven talk for both men and elves without the Silmaril.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I agree that it was probably helpul but it was his words that persuaded the Valar to start the War of the Wrath, no the Silmaril. I think that he could have gone to Valinor and being halfelven talk for both men and elves without the Silmaril.

That may well be, but that's not what happened. Also, what would the Valar have done with him after setting foot upon the Undying Lands, had he not had the Silmaril. Remeber that he was placed in the sky with the Silmaril bound to his brow as a sign of hope to the people of Middle-earth.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Yes, and being Christ-like is the Christian ideal, not being Christ Himself. That is too much to ask for, and might even be thought blasphemous.

But don't forget that we're discussing a work of literature, where such or such character could STAND FOR Christ in our "real" world. To Gandalf, Frodo or any of them, being Christ wouldn't be blasphemous, because the concept of a Messiah was not even present in ME. I'm talking from OUR perspective as related to TOLKIEN'S WORLD.

Originally Posted by inked

Given Tolkein's theory of eucatastrophe, they anticipate the Eucatastrophe, thereby participating in it priorly by Grace just as we may post-Eucatastrophe by the same mode. Remember St. Paul's remark that "God has not left Himself without witness." This included, IMHO, not only the world of nature but the world of mankind - imperfectly recognized or followed gleams of the Divine Plan falling on humanity (Elves - the arts/intellect, Hobbits - the social/individual, Dwarves - the material body/desires, and Humans - the unity in all its realizations). All IMHO, of course.

That sounds like a well-informed post, inked. If only I could understand it . Would you mind explaining what's eucatastrophe and what's Tolkien's take on it? Please?

[inked]

Beren.

That sounds like a well-informed post, inked. If only I could understand it . Would you mind explaining what's eucatastrophe and what's Tolkien's take on it? Please? [/QUOTE]

Sorry, I am referencing Tolkein's ON FAIERY STORIES an address he gave and which I first read in ESSAYS PRESENTED TO CHARLES WILLIAMS a festschrift to one of the Inklings who died unexpectedly. The essay is reprinted in THE TOLKEIN READER, as I recall.

Also Tolkein discusses this throughout the LETTERS tho' not always directly.

The condensed version is that the turn of unexpected deliverance in fairy stories is a reflection or subcreation of the actual Incarnational fulfilment of that theme: the deliverance of humanity and indeed all creation by the events of the Resurrection. Tolkein coined the term eucatastrophe as the opposite of the expected tragic ending in fairy stories and the Main Event as the Eucatastrophe.

Kindly read the essay and see if I am being accurate. I am sure fellow 'mooters will correct error if I have erred!

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by inked

Kindly read the essay and see if I am being accurate. I am sure fellow 'mooters will correct error if I have erred!

I think that you have been quite accurate. Anyone who wishes to understand Tolkien's work should have that essay memorized.

Personally, I think that the entire work points towards the Christian worldview of Tolkien. Sometimes it is intentional and sometimes not. This is not to say that LoTR is an allegory, its not. However, there is an unseen power that intervenes throughout the story.

In The Hobbit, Bilbo is constantly referred to as being lucky. He happens to come across the most powerful item in the world...by accident. Gandalf later says that there are other forces at work, besides that of evil, and that Bilbo was meant to find the ring.

Deagol happens upon the ring by chance.

Just as Sam charges into Cirith Ungol, the orcs are engaged in battle with each other and destroy each other without Sam having to strike a blow. (This is an event that takes place in the Old Testament on numerous occasions.)

The ultimate showing of this invisible hand is in Orodruin. When Frodo prooves in the end to be fallible (as another theme is that the capacity for evil is present in all of us), Gollum plays his part and _trips_ and falls to his death, destroying the ring. This event cannot be interpreted as "luck".

The "help unlooked for" aspect of LoTR reoccurs over and over again, just as it does in the Bible.