What Inflicted More Damage: The Silmarils or The Ring? - Page 3

Attalus · 11-07-2004, 07:31 PM

Of course, I agree. There is a fundamental difference between the Silmarils and the Ruling Ring: the Silmarils were holy, the Ring was evil. Holy objects only cause harm if they are mishandled, like the Sils burning Morgoth's hand, paining him forever, and like the Ark of the Covenat in the movie (and in the Bible). Evil objects cause evil effects, ruining Smeagol and causing Boromir's and Deagol's death. EDIT to add, the Sils burned Maedhros' hand, also, or was it Maeglor?

Telcontar_Dunedain · 11-08-2004, 03:17 AM

It was definitly Meadhros and it may have been Maglor as well.

Beren3000 · 11-08-2004, 01:47 PM

Although at first I was of the opinion that the Silmarils caused greater damage, I now had a 180 degrees change of opinion. Here's why:

If you imagine what ME would've been like without the Sil's, and what it would've been like without the Ring, you'll find that w/out the Sil's much of ME's beauty would be lost (Earendil, Beren and Luthien, etc...) but without the Ring, the Elves could've stayed a while longer in ME and the power of the Three would've been preserved.

Radagast The Brown · 11-08-2004, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Although at first I was of the opinion that the Silmarils caused greater damage, I now had a 180 degrees change of opinion. Here's why:

If you imagine what ME would've been like without the Sil's, and what it would've been like without the Ring, you'll find that w/out the Sil's much of ME's beauty would be lost (Earendil, Beren and Luthien, etc...) but without the Ring, the Elves could've stayed a while longer in ME and the power of the Three would've been preserved.

But... Sauron helped the Elves to make the Rings (he gave them the methods, didn't actually helped them in the Three). Without the One, and Sauron's plan with it, and Elves wouldn't have the Three either.

I'd guess that without the Silmarils the Noldor would still be in Valinor - but that Luthien would still exist. (as she had nothing to do with the Silamrils when she was born)

Think abnout it... without the Silmarils, maybe the One Ring would'nt be created.

Wayfarer · 11-08-2004, 07:30 PM

Okay, now you're just reaching...

Telcontar_Dunedain · 11-09-2004, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

But... Sauron helped the Elves to make the Rings (he gave them the methods, didn't actually helped them in the Three). Without the One, and Sauron's plan with it, and Elves wouldn't have the Three either.

I'd guess that without the Silmarils the Noldor would still be in Valinor - but that Luthien would still exist. (as she had nothing to do with the Silamrils when she was born)

And Beren would have met her to as Barahir's folk would have been hunted, as that had nothing to do with The Silmaril's.

Lenya · 11-09-2004, 04:18 PM

OK ok, you convinced me also. One tends to forget that the Ring has kind of a mind of its own, meaning it has more power to influence others. So maybe the Ring did inflict more damage

Radagast The Brown · 11-09-2004, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

And Beren would have met her to as Barahir's folk would have been hunted, as that had nothing to do with The Silmaril's.

No, I don't think so - you can't possibly know that. Beren's fathers went to Dorthonion becasue the Noldor were there - therefore, without the Silmarils, they wouldn't go there - and therefore Beren wouldn't know Luthien the way he did. Maybe another way - but that's unpredictable... it's just if's.

me9996 · 01-18-2005, 11:00 PM

The ring

Embladyne · 01-18-2005, 11:19 PM

I have to say that the damage the Silmarils is more tragic because of their original purpose for beauty and goodness. I'm undecided as to whether or not they caused greater damage though....

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-19-2005, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by me9996

The ring

Why do you think that?

Sirion · 01-19-2005, 03:35 PM

How many elven kingdoms did the Ring destroy? By the time the ring was forged, Middle Earth was just a shadow of what it was in the first age. It has to be the Silmarils. I mean, they either indirectly or directly brought down so many of the great Elven kings. If not for Feanor and his stupid greed, the elves might never have come to Middle Earth, after which none of what followed might have happened. It has to be the Silmarils.

Lenya · 01-19-2005, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirion

How many elven kingdoms did the Ring destroy? By the time the ring was forged, Middle Earth was just a shadow of what it was in the first age. It has to be the Silmarils. I mean, they either indirectly or directly brought down so many of the great Elven kings. If not for Feanor and his stupid greed, the elves might never have come to Middle Earth, after which none of what followed might have happened. It has to be the Silmarils.

That's a pretty nasty thing to be saying around here. There are always Feanor fans sneeking around, waiting to jump on anyone who happens not to like him. But I agree with the whole greed thing.

The ring were worse though, IMO. It destroyed directly, not as the Silm that were in themselves powerless to destroy anything.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-19-2005, 05:31 PM

Well what did the Ring destroy directly? Eregion was destroyed by Sauron's forces, not by the Ring.

Radagast The Brown · 01-19-2005, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenya

That's a pretty nasty thing to be saying around here. There are always Feanor fans sneeking around, waiting to jump on anyone who happens not to like him. But I agree with the whole greed thing.

The ring were worse though, IMO. It destroyed directly, not as the Silm that were in themselves powerless to destroy anything.

Maybe the Ring was worse, but it didn't inflict as much damage. The Silmarils caused a lot of killed Elves and Men... and Orcs, and other creatures. Maybe without the Silmarils The Valar could handle Morgoth without all the unnecessary kills.
The Ring didn't do much worse that Sauron couldn't do without it IMO.

Embladyne · 01-19-2005, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

The Ring didn't do much worse that Sauron couldn't do without it IMO.

I agree, and seeing as how it kinda held a lot of his powers, I'd say that in a way, it put a check on the amount of damage he was able to inflict...just my thoughts.

Lenya · 01-19-2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Well what did the Ring destroy directly? Eregion was destroyed by Sauron's forces, not by the Ring.

Yeah ok. It didn't grasp a sword and slice someone. I'd still say it worked more directly. At least it spoke/called to people to do something.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-19-2005, 06:01 PM

Well the Silmarils very directly cause the both destructions of Doriath. If it wan't for the Silmarils then the Noldor wouldn't have returned to ME so all the Noldorin kingdoms made there wouldn't have been destroyed etc.

Beren3000 · 01-20-2005, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirion

If not for Feanor and his stupid greed, the elves might never have come to Middle Earth, after which none of what followed might have happened.

Yet another Fëanorophobic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenya

There are always Feanor fans sneeking around, waiting to jump on anyone who happens not to like him.

I don't get it; are you one of those fans?

Lenya · 01-20-2005, 05:25 AM

NO! I am not a Fëanorophobic.

11-07-2004, 07:31 PM	#41
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Of course, I agree. There is a fundamental difference between the Silmarils and the Ruling Ring: the Silmarils were holy, the Ring was evil. Holy objects only cause harm if they are mishandled, like the Sils burning Morgoth's hand, paining him forever, and like the Ark of the Covenat in the movie (and in the Bible). Evil objects cause evil effects, ruining Smeagol and causing Boromir's and Deagol's death. EDIT to add, the Sils burned Maedhros' hand, also, or was it Maeglor? __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 11-07-2004 at 07:33 PM.

11-08-2004, 03:17 AM	#42
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	It was definitly Meadhros and it may have been Maglor as well. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

11-08-2004, 07:30 PM	#45
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Okay, now you're just reaching... __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 11-08-2004 at 07:38 PM.

01-18-2005, 11:19 PM	#50
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	I have to say that the damage the Silmarils is more tragic because of their original purpose for beauty and goodness. I'm undecided as to whether or not they caused greater damage though.... __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

01-19-2005, 05:31 PM	#54
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Well what did the Ring destroy directly? Eregion was destroyed by Sauron's forces, not by the Ring. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

11-08-2004, 01:47 PM	#43
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Although at first I was of the opinion that the Silmarils caused greater damage, I now had a 180 degrees change of opinion. Here's why: If you imagine what ME would've been like without the Sil's, and what it would've been like without the Ring, you'll find that w/out the Sil's much of ME's beauty would be lost (Earendil, Beren and Luthien, etc...) but without the Ring, the Elves could've stayed a while longer in ME and the power of the Three would've been preserved.

11-09-2004, 04:18 PM	#47
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	OK ok, you convinced me also. One tends to forget that the Ring has kind of a mind of its own, meaning it has more power to influence others. So maybe the Ring did inflict more damage

01-19-2005, 03:35 PM	#52
Sirion Sapling Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6	How many elven kingdoms did the Ring destroy? By the time the ring was forged, Middle Earth was just a shadow of what it was in the first age. It has to be the Silmarils. I mean, they either indirectly or directly brought down so many of the great Elven kings. If not for Feanor and his stupid greed, the elves might never have come to Middle Earth, after which none of what followed might have happened. It has to be the Silmarils.

01-19-2005, 06:01 PM	#58
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Well the Silmarils very directly cause the both destructions of Doriath. If it wan't for the Silmarils then the Noldor wouldn't have returned to ME so all the Noldorin kingdoms made there wouldn't have been destroyed etc. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

01-20-2005, 05:25 AM	#60
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	NO! I am not a Fëanorophobic.

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