Theological Opinions

[Rían]

Lief, Lief - you appear, with your sunny disposition and thoughtful posts - then disappear School's just too much right now?

[Janny]

What do you think of similar doctrines to Christianity, such as Islam and Judaism? Do you regard them as believing in the same God as Christianity? Does accepting this mean that thye are equal? And does equality not diminish the validity of the belief in Christianity?

(I was pleased to read on another board (one for kids 12-19, even better) someone comment that:

All major religions lead to a divine, ineffable reality beyond comprehension, but the difference is in regards to the naming of the Reality, its purpose, how it acts in the world and the various laws it created... All religions point to the same divine essence and they generally share the same messages, and funnily enough there are actually greater differences within the religions than between them.

A kid remember.)

[Rían]

What do YOU think?

[Janny]

I think I asked the question and can play the 'you first' card.

[inked]

Since there isn't an identified hot seat on this thread, I'll respond to Janny's question.
"What do you think of similar doctrines to Christianity, such as Islam and Judaism? Do you regard them as believing in the same God as Christianity? Does accepting this mean that thye are equal? And does equality not diminish the validity of the belief in Christianity?"

The three religions you mention are monotheistic, that is they assert that there is one God, not a plurality of gods. They differed historically from polytheistic religions by asserting that reality.

There are vast differences between them in some respects and some points of similarity, but not much outright agreement regarding the nature of the monotheistic God they assert. Knowledgable profess-ors of each faith would be able to discuss those differences, but they could seem very similar to someone outside the tradition(s).

The faiths mentioned are not equal if you mean that at root they say the same things. Moral codes are pretty much the same throughout the world in all religious and even philosophical traditions. But the response to the moral codes is not the same, and you begin to see more clearly the differences. So they are not equal in the sense of what it takes to adhere to the moral codes and satisfy God's requirements.

Equality does not exist between them in these key conceptions and responses. There is no diminishment of the truth of Christianity because we live in a society which allows free expression of religious belief (notable exceptions are child sacrifice and similar systems).

I could probably bore you with details but you can certainly head my answers in the way you'd like to go.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Janny

I think I asked the question and can play the 'you first' card.

Well, I can always try, can't I?

Can I play the "skip" card?

[Janny]

No! Answer the question!

Thank-you, inked. Would you then say that you are not worshipping the same God as them?

[inked]

Janny,

To be truthful, I would not be worshipping the same conception of God as they are. That is from my human perspective which will never comprehend God totally.

The God I worship has invaded space and time and become Incarnate, had dirty diapers, and played by the same rules as were established for us. This is quite different from most Jewish understanding (yes, there are Messianic Jews) and at odds with Islam. The theology gets difficult, but, at the risk of offending people, my view is that Judaism is not yet complete and Islam is a Christian heresy which denies the Incarnation.

So, if you can reconcile those disparities and pretend that "its" all one God, I would say that the concept of God would have to be so amorphus as to be meaningless.

Now, that doesn't mean I know who is pleasing to God, but it does mean that I believe that anyone who is pleasing to Him is made so through the mediation of His Son, Jesus of Nazareth. And it means that I am called to obedience like His Son's and to be conformed to His image - "who considered his equality with God not a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, and took the form of a servant, and gave himself up to death on a tree; wherefore God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord - things on the earth, and under the earth, and in the heavens." (St. Paul, Ephesians, paraphrased from memory, 1st chapter).

I believe that if you asked Jewish people of faith and Muslims is that what they believe, they would say no.

So, no, I don't think we have the same conception of God.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

this is where i basically disagree with christianity... i think the goal of any creator would be to create someone who would eventually become a peer...

But can you see it's logically impossible to do this? A created being can NEVER become its own creator - it's not a selfish choice made by a selfish creator, it's just a logical impossibility. And I think that God has made humans His peers as much as is physically possible. And to complain about not having things that are inherently impossible is just a waste of time and a denial of reality, when one could be joyfully running with what we DO have! (I'm not saying you're doing this.) Christians are called "the Bride of Christ", and God speaks in analogies of husband and wife when talking of Himself and the people He has created. I don't see any other inherently possible way He could have done things. And I don't see any higher status He can bestow on us that is inherently possible. Do you?

this does not mean that the creation has to necessarily ever develop to the point where it can physically equal "god"... but it can, and should develop to the point where the creation can say "i no longer need my creator"

Again, I think we need to look at what is inherently possible, and if it is a simple fact of the physics of the universe that God's power upholds it, then it's not a conceited thing to say we need our Creator, it's just a fact.

And needing isn't necessarily a bad thing

But again, I think it's more of a "fact thing" than some evil plot by God to keep us down

this also does not mean that the creator would necessarily be cast aside... while i have not reached this point with my children yet, i have with my parents... the point where you know you don't need them anymore, yet you still love and appreciate them for where they brought you to... a love which is arguably stronger than any before, because there are no strings attached... no necessity

Again, this is where the parent/child analogy fails with God. If it is just a simple fact that God's power sustains the universe, then it's just denying reality to say you want to exist completely independently from God.

that said, i can appreciate your pov too... thanks for spelling it out so completely

You're welcome, and thanks to you, too!

[Janny]

Originally Posted by inked

So, no, I don't think we have the same conception of God.

No, practising differences. But is not the guy you are actually worshipping the same entity?

[Rían]

whoops - double post...

[Rían]

Your Janniness - you speak, and I obey! (my husband will be contacting you soon to see how you manage this so easily! )

I would pretty much agree with what inked said - "Judaism is not yet complete and Islam is a Christian heresy which denies the Incarnation."

I think the best description of Judaism is what Lewis said - roughly, it was to pound into the heads of people 2 things - that there is one God, and that He is holy. It was preparation for the coming of Jesus - it was not a complete thing.

Now Judaism has also added regulation upon regulation (the Mishnah, I think it's called) with different rabbbi's interpretations ("you cannot walk farther than "x" on the Sabbath", etc), which Jesus dismissed as false teaching. Jesus said that the Pharisees made all these little rules up and ignored the heart of the teaching. For example, they would tithe, even on the spices they had in their house, but let their parents go hungry. And they said that Jesus healing a person on the Sabbath was "work" and so it was illegal - really hard-hearted and totally missing the purpose of the Sabbath and the heart of God! So I think Judaism is also wrong in that it has ADDED human opinion to God's revelation, including what they think God desires, which reflects on who He is - so it's not the same God as Christianity describes.

As far as Islam ... From what I understand, in Islam, the doctrine of the Trinity is considered blasphemy, which means God is VERY different. ALso, Jesus is not the Son of God, Jesus is a prophet like Abraham and is below Mohammed, Jesus didn't really die, God is impersonal (He is not called "Father"), and salvation is totally dependant upon a person's own acts (not provided for by Jesus according to the will of the Father). This, again, means a very different God.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Lief, Lief - you appear, with your sunny disposition and thoughtful posts - then disappear School's just too much right now?

I'm actually able to be online for a while today. Taking today off of school, because I had a cousin over. Pleasure .

[Rían]

Have fun!

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Your Janniness - you speak, and I obey! (my husband will be contacting you soon to see how you manage this so easily! )

Lol RÃ*an

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Now Judaism has also added regulation upon regulation (the Mishnah, I think it's called) with different rabbbi's interpretations ("you cannot walk farther than "x" on the Sabbath", etc), which Jesus dismissed as false teaching. Jesus said that the Pharisees made all these little rules up and ignored the heart of the teaching. For example, they would tithe, even on the spices they had in their house, but let their parents go hungry. And they said that Jesus healing a person on the Sabbath was "work" and so it was illegal - really hard-hearted and totally missing the purpose of the Sabbath and the heart of God! So I think Judaism is also wrong in that it has ADDED human opinion to God's revelation, including what they think God desires, which reflects on who He is - so it's not the same God as Christianity describes.

This reminds me of a book to add to the Theology book list (we already have at least two books by C.S. Lewis) - The Chosen, by Chiam Potok. This is seriously one of the best books I've ever read, and it's about two Jewish boys who become best friends, even though they come from very different backgrounds. The book is set in New York in the 1950s IIRC. They are both Jewish, but are from two very different (sects? denominations?). There are many interesting scenes where they study the Talmud. I know very little but I was still able to follow this book. Judaism is quite varied.
If the same rules set down by the Pharisees are still around today - in words and intent, it's worth noting that it's certainly not all of Judaism.

[Rían]

Oh, I saw that movie - The Chosen - it was great!

GTG!

[Nurvingiel]

They made a movie out of it!!! (The book also has a sequel - The Promise.)

I have to go too. Really this time!

[inked]

Janny,

I tried to make it as clear as I could that the differing conceptions of God really meant something. If I believe as I do, and a Muslim believes as he does, and a Jewish person as they do, then we have radically different ideas of God within monotheism.

By those definitions, it is not the same GOD.

By His own revelation of Himself in the Incarnation, it is not the same GOD.

Christian claims are really quite radical.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I differ with you in that I think God is more "hands-off" on our actions, altho He KNOWS what they will be. IOW, I think God truly allows people to choose (within parameters He sets - IOW, limited free choice, as we see in Job, where Satan has freedom to operate WITHIN parameters that God has set.)

One of the interesting things about Job is how it tends to undermine a common Free Will advocate position on pain. People believing in Free Will normally say that God doesn't choose the pain, but merely that he permits people to cause one another pain. Job confronts God with the injustice of what has happened to him, and God doesn't respond, "I wasn't responsible for that- Satan was." He says, "who are you to question my plans?" An awesome point, IMO, fully in keeping with what Paul reveals more fully in the Book of Romans, chapter 9.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

Never does God schive off his responsibility, as we sometimes try to take responsibility from him. Paul explains that he has prepared some people for destruction, in order to show his glory to his chosen ones. Paul also claims that a creator has the right to do this with his creations. He has the right to make his creations for what purposes he chooses, and the point that both he makes and God himself makes, in the Book of Job, is that God is the only one sufficiently qualified to judge those purposes and decisions.

That's actually why I often find it extremely arrogant when nonbelievers say that God could not have any good plan behind the evil and pain that exist in the world.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I see overwhelming evidence of this, mainly in verses like Joshua's great admonition to the people of Israel "CHOOSE NOW this day whom you will serve..."

I believe in predestination, yet I do the same thing all the time. From my perspective, people have choices to make. We do have responsibilities.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

and verses like "well done, good and faithful servant!" - how is it well-done if it is not a choice?

We are not robots. However, to be free, I don't think that we have to be free from God. In fact, it is visible from scripture that the very heart of freedom is complete submission to God, and complete dominance of God in our lives. His will over our will.

We are not commended for any of our own works. In fact, it is written in scripture that when we come before God, we should say, "we are poor and unworthy servants. We have only done our duty." Everything we do is supposed to be to God's glory, not to ours. It says in Isaiah that "our righteous acts are as filthy rags." God's righteous acts through us are what are worth commending. Therefore we can truly say that we are poor and unworthy servants. We're not being modest, when we say that. We're telling the truth.

You know, RÃ*an, you actually act out of accord with your own words whenever you sit down to pray. Let's say it's at a friend's house. You thank her for the food, but then you also thank God for the food! If it's your friend's grace that you have the food, you should be thanking only your friend, as she deserves. But no, God predestined that you receive that food at that time, so you thank him for that also. It's not just your friend giving you the food- God also is giving it to you. Just as he gives you everything else that you encounter in your life.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And I see all over Isaiah and Lamentations and Jeremiah that God Himself suffers pain by our wrong choices ... VERY mysterious and amazing, and obviously a choice on God's part to make Himself open to suffering by our choices.

I concur, that is one of the really marvelous things about God. That also is one of the reasons the pain argument doesn't work for nonbelievers. Not only is God most qualified to judge whether to give pain or not; he experiences it too. My Dad believes that it's because he is omniscient that this is true. If God absolutely knows what is happening, it is the same as him suffering. I'm still not positive exactly in what way God suffers, but I think still that it is a marvelous truth.

I don't see how this is an evidence for free will, though.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Now to be fair - because I'm NOT interested in winning debates, but only in finding truth - there are verses on the other side, such as in Proverbs - "the king's heart is like channels of water in God's hand - He turns it which way He wills" and of course, Pharaoh. But Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart many times, before it is said that God hardened his heart.

Well, in Romans Paul doesn't say Pharaoh's will is separate from God's, in that area.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

That doesn't seem to be admitting much room for free will, if you define free will as freedom from God's will.

I still think that it's evident from scripture that this type of free will isn't a true definition of freedom at all, though. Jesus said that everything he said, he heard from the Father. It's clear from scripture that the more submitted to God we are, the less will we have that's free from God, the more free we are! So I really don't see how you can think that freedom from God is such a desirable thing. We do have the freedom to act according to the natures God has given us, though. Except when sin is involved. That keeps us from acting according to the nature God has given us, but makes us a slave.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And I think rulers are exceptions in some way, in special circumstances. And of course there's predestination.

Basically, it boils down to I think we'll NEVER fully understand this - after all, we're talking about an omniscient and omnipotent God - yet to me, the evidence CLEARLY falls on the side of humans having a vast amount (altho limited) of free will choices. And all this is idle talk, unless we are aware of - what choices, whether I have them or not, will I make TODAY?

We have the freedom to act according to our nature. God doesn't make us do anything that's out-of-character for us to do. That's actually one point where I disagree with free will advocates. They think that God sometimes just overwhelms a person to make him do what God wants him to do. I think that he doesn't act in this way. He doesn't have to use brute force methods, but simply orchestrates everything according to his divine plan. (Shakes head slightly) I really can't see why you find this "freedom", or "separation from God", so desirable and such a marvelous gift from God. From scripture, it's apparent that everything of us that is separate from God's will is sin. From logic (as I argued in the earlier two posts) it is apparent that anything God doesn't rule over is from his perspective, chance.

God's influence isn't overwhelming us, or forcing us. Neither does it make us robots. We don't have the freedom to act outside of our natures. Neither does God. This lack of freedom does not make us robots. That everything comes from God and is chosen by God doesn't make us robots either. Jesus Incarnate was not a robot, IMO. In fact, freedom comes from submission. A paradoxical but marvelous Christian truth.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Lief - I'm running out of time, but I wanted to give a quick response (since you were so kind as to ask my opinion ) -

but first - I'm so glad you brought up that point about "knowledge" - the word means an intimate, physical knowing of, not just a "head" knowlege of, evil

Now on to free will - we've talked about this briefly before via PM, and I'll reiterate some of the points. (yeah, right, like I can be brief on a subject like this! )

I'm quite happy with the response. I will argue the matter, but thanks for the time taken in responding .

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'd like to close the post with the lyrics of a song by Chris Rice :


Quote:
"Life Means So Much", by Chris Rice

Every day is a journal page
Every man holds a quill and ink
And there's plenty of room for writing in
All we do and believe and think

So will you compose a curse
Or will today bring the blessings?
Fill the page with rhyming verse
Or some random sketchings?

(chorus)
Teach us to count the days
Teach us to make the days count
Lead us in better ways
Somehow our souls forgot
Life means so much
Life means so much.

Every day is a bank account
And time is our currency
So no one's rich, nobody's poor
We get twenty-four hours each
So how are you gonna spend?
Will you invest or squander?
Try to get ahead
Or help someone's who's under?

(chorus)

Has anybody lived who knew the value of a life?
And didn't He give His own to show the worth of yours and mine?

(chorus)

Every day is a gift you've been given,
Make the most of the time every minute you're livin'

(repeat and fade)

AND APPLY!

A very good song . Have you ever heard it sung before?