What's up with Sweden?

[Lótiel]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
Sweden is the last Soviet State. In this country a lot of people thinks that communism is a viable option. They don't know or ignore the fact that it ALWAYS leads to tyranny. They also ignore all the atrocities commited by communist dictatorships while they scream on the top of their lungs against Hitler and Nazism in their demonstrations. So there is a plethora of idiots in this country.

I always heard from Swedish people that Norway was the last soviet state. Last time was when the Telenor-Telia fusion collapsed in 2000. But that wasn´t the only time swedes gave Norway that name in public.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jonathan
But I agree people seem to raise their voices more against the right-winged extremists than the extremists on the left.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree, in Europe it´s really hip to be left-wing nowadays. Extremists are just as bad, no matter if they are right or left.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
Sweden is the last Soviet State. In this country a lot of people thinks that communism is a viable option. They don't know or ignore the fact that it ALWAYS leads to tyranny. They also ignore all the atrocities commited by communist dictatorships while they scream on the top of their lungs against Hitler and Nazism in their demonstrations. So there is a plethora of idiots in this country.

Pure communism, just like pure capitalism, can not exist without the oppression of some for the benefit of others. Humans are subject to corruption and therefore neither of these extremes can exist in our world.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Pure communism, just like pure capitalism, can not exist without the oppression of some for the benefit of others. Humans are subject to corruption and therefore neither of these extremes can exist in our world.

You're quite right. Look at the United States. There pure almost capitalism rule. There's a tiny sector of social services. Most people has to have a insurance to pay for medical espenses etc.
The american way is a both good and bad. One can (if capable and educated enough) make one's own future. But there's hardly any safety net for people who can't get a job or is otherwize incapacitated.

WORK OR DIE is the motto most of the time.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the USA. They've helped Europe out of two world wars to and without that help we would been squerming under Soviet yoke.

Sweden has through the current downslope in economi begun to look a lot like the current US.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I think that's also a tendency in a lot of (western) European countries.

True, though perhaps that's only natural. In Germany, for example, it's understandable that they should be worried about right-wing extremism, as I think many people are.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally posted by sun-star
True, though perhaps that's only natural. In Germany, for example, it's understandable that they should be worried about right-wing extremism, as I think many people are.

But should we therefore ignore the horrors perpetrated by leftwing extremists as is often the case in Sweden.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
But should we therefore ignore the horrors perpetrated by leftwing extremists as is often the case in Sweden.

I think that is one thing that makes America and Europe so different. As Europe moves further left - they view our country as being more extreme right, when in actuality politicians here have to appeal to the middle. We view Europe as going extreme in both directions though with very little middle ground - and frankly it's rather scary from this side of the fence.

[The Gaffer]

Europe is, of course, becoming more right wing. The communist parties of the major European countries have all but disappeared and what remains of the socialist parties have adopted conservative policies. The US, on the other hand, has one very right-wing party and one moderately right-wing party to choose from.

As people have pointed out, one of the reasons we (or at least I) abhor right-wing extremism (apart from the fact that I am more left than right myself) is that I associate it with the appalling forms of nationalism that put millions of people into death camps and cause two world wars.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Europe is, of course, becoming more right wing. The communist parties of the major European countries have all but disappeared and what remains of the socialist parties have adopted conservative policies. The US, on the other hand, has one very right-wing party and one moderately right-wing party to choose from.

What extreme right wing party would that be?

And your idea that there are only two parties to choose from is a very ignorant statement.

As people have pointed out, one of the reasons we (or at least I) abhor right-wing extremism (apart from the fact that I am more left than right myself) is that I associate it with the appalling forms of nationalism that put millions of people into death camps and cause two world wars.

And the left didn't put millions to death under socialism and communism? or because those were and are behind closed doors it just doesn't count?

[The Gaffer]

What extreme right wing party would that be?

Well, that's very tempting, but I'll resist. But here's a clue.

I just wanted to point out that the political attitudes towards collectivism and welfare are radically different between the US and Europe. That's what puts both of your political parties on the right.

And you can call me names if you like but it doesn't change the fact that there are only two political parties who have any chance of forming a government in the US.

EDIT: Whoops! Sorry, missed your other sarcastic jibe. Yes, you're right about Stalin, of course. One reason why I'm not a communist either.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Well, that's very tempting, but I'll resist. But here's a clue.

So you base all your opinions on the VERY liberal guardian. I should have known.

I just wanted to point out that the political attitudes towards collectivism and welfare are radically different between the US and Europe. That's what puts both of your political parties on the right.

It's actualy the fact that Europe has moved so far left and basically socialists that you view the US as extreme right.

And you can call me names if you like but it doesn't change the fact that there are only two political parties who have any chance of forming a government in the US.

I don't recall calling you names. I said your statement was ignorant. Are you a statement? As for the political parties - the Republican party was at one time a third party. The Libertarians are the probably the third strongest party in the US and have had governors and so forth. We look more at the personal candidates anyway - and less at the polictical party.

EDIT: Whoops! Sorry, missed your other sarcastic jibe. Yes, you're right about Stalin, of course. One reason why I'm not a communist either.

I didn't know that pointing out that communism also put to death millions of people as sacrasm. You seemed to only want to say the right did that.

And it's funny having YOU complain about sarcasm. I guess you can dish it out - just can't take it.

[The Gaffer]

The fact that the "word" liberal is so widely used in a pejorative sense is another indication of how much further to the right the US is than Europe. Here, liberals are centrists, not left-wingers.

[Grey_Wolf]

A lot of leftists say that the communism of the Soviet Union was not the real communism, as if there are several different kinds of it. There isn't. There is only one communism and it always leads to tyranny. It's a pity that so many Swedes and other Europeans still think it viable option, especially the ones that lived under the Soviet yoke for 50 years. And that jewes choose to forget their compatriots in the Soviet Union who was sent to Stalin's death camps in Siberia and is quite beyond me. I wonder when those 20 - 30 million victims will be honoured with a huge memorial.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
But should we therefore ignore the horrors perpetrated by leftwing extremists as is often the case in Sweden.

No, of course not. All extremists are dangerous - that's what makes them "extreme". I'm saying that given Europe's history over the past century it is perhaps only to be expected that people would be more alert to the dangers of Fascism than those of Communism - particularly, as I said, in Germany, where the Nazi era is of course a very sore subject. It's more true from the perspective of westen Europe, perhaps.

IMO though, the terms left and right lose their meaning when you're talking about extreme ideologies. What we today call left-wing or right-wing democratic political parties are light years away from the totalitarian regimes which we also call left and right - thank God.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
The fact that the "word" liberal is so widely used in a pejorative sense is another indication of how much further to the right the US is than Europe. Here, liberals are centrists, not left-wingers.

Which is my point. Europe is actually more extreme to the left liberal than the US is. Byut at the same time - Europe is also more extreme to the right than the US. You look at our left as being right - because your left wing is borderline socialism if not communism.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
The fact that the "word" liberal is so widely used in a pejorative sense is another indication of how much further to the right the US is than Europe. Here, liberals are centrists, not left-wingers.

He calls me liberal also. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[Ruinel]

Wait... isn't this thread about how the two Swedes on this board rape animals?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
He calls me liberal also. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I actually haven't called you liberal. You're more moderate. A lot of your opinions fall into the Republican camp - such as your views on the UN.

[sun-star]

What does 'liberal' even mean? The principles of Liberalism in Britain (orinigally the Whig/Liberal party) are totally foreign to our modern definition, and I'm sure it's the same in other countries. The 19th century European liberals are even further away. Maybe politics can't really use such labels - left, right, liberal, conservative - any more, especially in comparing parties from different countries and traditions. For example, in the UK I'm slightly to the right, but nothing like the US definition of a right-winger. It's like we're talking different languages.

Just some random wonderings - possibly the result of having to try endlessly to decide which bits of New Labour are left-wing and which are right-wing for politics exams. Makes you lose the will to live after a while

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I actually haven't called you liberal. You're more moderate. A lot of your opinions fall into the Republican camp - such as your views on the UN.

Do you want a flame war!?! There is absolutely NOTHING republican about my views! You'd better watch those insults, mister!

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by sun-star
For example, in the UK I'm slightly to the right, but nothing like the US definition of a right-winger. It's like we're talking different languages.

Exactement. The political left-right scale in the US is different from the one in Europe, so it's difficult to compare American and European parties and categorize them by how much they lean to the left or right.