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06-25-2004, 12:44 PM | #41 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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IMO, you are the one that got out of hand on this thread first. I thought that the "21 ways" thread was purposefully insulting under the cover of humor, too (a very cowardly approach), and those that it was aimed at restrained themselves very well, in spite of the unfair and ridiculously overstated accusations, and in spite of having no chance to defend themselves. Now as the thread starter: please, everyone, let's drop the insults. There's some good material for discussion here; let's hold it up to the group and examine it in the light of different opinions. Let's appreciate different POV's and try to learn.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-25-2004 at 12:47 PM. |
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06-25-2004, 12:48 PM | #42 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(NOT! )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-25-2004, 12:53 PM | #43 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Do you really mean that? You think it's right to NOT be fair? Could you please explain that to me? Why should we NOT be fair? This really concerns me. Does anyone else have an opinion on this?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-25-2004 at 12:55 PM. |
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06-25-2004, 01:33 PM | #44 | |
mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity
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In those cases, fairness and objectivity are not important to the participants. I don't think EXK is saying that it is the right approach -- just that it is often what happens in those situations. Am I making myself clear here??
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"Never try to out-stubborn a cat!" -- R. Heinlein ~~~~~~~~~ "But I don't want to be among mad people, " Alice remarked. "Oh, but you can't help that," said the Cat; "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." ~~ Lewis Carroll ~~~~~~~~~~~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana... |
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06-25-2004, 03:15 PM | #45 | |||||||
Possessive Villain Fancier
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Let me clarify what I meant. I didn't mean that unfairness is right. Quite the contrary, I think that being fair is very important, which is why I believe that the words in this argument should remain pro-abortion and anti-abortion. What I meant by saying whatever would be fairer doesn't matter is that when you are on one side of a debate you have to strongly beleive in your opinion, and you will chose how best to represent your side. Because you do this, and your opponent will do the same the fairest representations won't necessarily be the ones that are used. I don't think this is right at all, all I meant is that it isn't something that is important to the people who are trying to put forwards their campaign, so you get the kind of unfair representation you find with the pair pro-choice and anti-abortion. Was that clearer? I hope so. And since this thread is about words, I wonder what do people think of modern day gender representation and the equality/inequality of that?
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06-25-2004, 04:02 PM | #46 | |
The Intermittent One
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06-25-2004, 04:24 PM | #47 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I thought she was saying what I've heard some other people say, and I wanted to address it. (but I'm glad she wasn't saying that!) Many people (not really much on the Moot - mostly people I've seen elsewhere) seem to think that "all's fair in love and war" - AND discussions, including deception and unfairness and lack of courtesy. The thought seems to be "If I can get away with it and it helps my side, then great!" I VERY strongly disagree with that attitude. To me, discussion on issues should be - Go for it passionately! but honestly and with respect for those involved. (rather like the new line in my sig...) IMO, if you can't persuade people to your position on its merits, then you certainly shouldn't try to deceive people into taking your position.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-25-2004, 04:39 PM | #48 | |
mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity
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I know I don't see eye-to-eye with some folks here on the Moot, but I always try respect what they say (even if I personnally think they have cotton for brains... ...I'd never say that). I've also found that most folks here have pretty sound reasons for having the opinions they have and that they do a very good job of expressing those reasons. And I think that we've all found people here that we can respect, joke with and have "interesting" discussions with without getting personal. Look at the friends you hang around with...I doubt that they agree with you all the time, nor do you with them. But you like them anyway and want to be around them. You don't always have to touch on subjects that you don't agree on because there is so much else you can discuss...just like here on the Moot!
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"Never try to out-stubborn a cat!" -- R. Heinlein ~~~~~~~~~ "But I don't want to be among mad people, " Alice remarked. "Oh, but you can't help that," said the Cat; "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." ~~ Lewis Carroll ~~~~~~~~~~~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana... |
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06-25-2004, 04:43 PM | #49 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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This should really be on the comparative religion thread, tho, where we started talking about people's basis for morality - I'll try to get my reworded question up there sometime soon. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-25-2004, 04:47 PM | #50 | |
The Intermittent One
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If we are getting on to gender representation, i would like to throw this one in:
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06-25-2004, 06:16 PM | #51 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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The power of words... when I think of that I automatically think of something out of Shakespeare's work (Romeo and Juliet methinks): "A rose by any other name still smells as sweet."
After which I immediatly think: Shakespeare never went to a political debate. The art of using similar, but mostly negative, words for your opponent in discussing and debates is an old one. In regard to the terminology in the abortiondebate I think if you name one side with the name they chose for themselves (prolife or prochoice) you should be fair and do the same for the other party. In the end you might just as well say pro- or anti-abortion which is basically still the point of the whole debate.
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06-25-2004, 07:35 PM | #52 |
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Can we talk about abortion in this thread anyway? Or just terminology?
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
06-25-2004, 11:35 PM | #53 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'd prefer we don't talk much about abortion in this thread - I wanted to mainly discuss terminology, and explain reasons behind the terminology I like, and hear others' reasons behind the terminology they like. So just talk about abortion as much as needed to explain your terms.
I'm pretty sure there's a thread specifically on abortion, if you want to bring it up again and discuss the issues involved. Thanks for asking
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-26-2004, 06:29 AM | #54 | |
Lady of Letters
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The issue is abortion, therefore any phrase which evades using that word is misleading IMO.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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06-26-2004, 07:00 AM | #55 |
The Blobbit
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I agree. In a debate about abortion it seems the easiest way to set out your stance by saying 'I am for / against'.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
06-26-2004, 09:27 AM | #56 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I'm "pro birth control, anti killing". There! I feel nicely wrapped up in a neat little package!
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06-27-2004, 05:56 PM | #57 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Abortion - A term poor people use in place of the upper class term "D&C".
I'm anti-abortion but also anti-anti-abortion law. Good luck with that.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
06-27-2004, 07:35 PM | #58 |
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Easy! If you were a woman, you wouldn't have one (unless your life was in danger ), but you don't want to tell other women what to do, because you really don't know someone else's situation. You certainly don't think abortion should be used as birth control....but that's the catch isn't it? How can you REALLY separate the two? We need more billboards that say "Abortion stops a beating heart". Thinking of that should make any woman more careful to use birth control effectively.
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06-27-2004, 10:26 PM | #59 | |
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Some of the politicians are like that (chuch as "personally against abortion" but "wouldn't want to force that view on others," often democrats). I don't quite understand it, since governing means making decisions about issues and subsequently creating laws regulating them. Almost anything a politician/gov. official tries to do in office ends up in forcing their view on others. Example: "I want higher taxes." "I make higher taxes" which leads to the people being affected by that view. They can have that forced on them by a law. How could any politician not want to force their views on the common people? Am I missing something here? And in the abortion terminology, I believe each side has the right to use the words favoring their own side (pro-choice, pro-life) as long as they are still technically/medically correct.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 06-27-2004 at 10:37 PM. |
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06-27-2004, 11:30 PM | #60 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I view all laws as dubious, except the really basic ones. I ask myself if a law prohibiting abortion would be practical or would benefit society. The past circumstances showed that it was not a beneficial law. Politicians are into making laws like crack dealers are into selling crack. It make for more business. I know freedom is sort of out-of-fashion these days, what with the patriot act, etc, but less useless laws and better enforcement of existing good ones would be a much more useful plan. Besides, I don't like the idea of a search warrant for a vagina. (PoW example)
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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