What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
Also, I want you to know that my silence was due to serious sickness in the family.

Sorry to hear that. Glad you're back around. Is everything OK? Did you lose anyone?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
...Professor was not interested in “simply telling his story”, his concern was in CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world, glimpses of which was coming to him as separate visions of the whole big picture, but the links between the fragments was always there.(The stories) arose in my mind as “GIVEN“ THINGS, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew…yet always I had the sense of “recording” what was already “THERE” somewhere not of “inventing“…Letter#131
As he admitted , in some cases, when taking ”largely impersonal view “on the LOTR, he himself had been surprised with findings that the base canvas of the story seems giving a quite different interpretation of events. The links between events was missing and he had to “think up” some explanations of things which didn’t “add up”, like the case of Isildur’s dishonorable death.
Tolkien always felt that he is ”reporting “ the events “ imperfectly”, that the story of the book consists the vistas of yet more legend and history.
If he would be interested in just telling the story, as many authors do nowadays, he wouldn’t go through “colossal” labor of ”re-writing backwards” trying to work out all these logistic between separate visions of the story as it has been “given”to him , detailing up to boreness in the field of geography, societies structure, linguistics and folklore. Naturally, he can overlook some aspects, but it doesn’t mean that it was not “there“.

Since your quote will be bolded, I took the liberty of underlining portions which you had bolded.

Olmer, I always figured Tolkien was speaking metaphorically about his inspiration. I don't see anything to indicate to me that he thought it was truly something which had happened before, and that it was now being 'revealed' to him in some metaphysical way.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil

Olmer, I always figured Tolkien was speaking metaphorically about his inspiration. I don't see anything to indicate to me that he thought it was truly something which had happened before, and that it was now being 'revealed' to him in some metaphysical way.

Thanks for your concern, Valandil. Now, since the crisis is over, we'll hope that everything will be OK.

Now,back to our discussion...

If you don’t want to believe , you will never see .
Just like some people believe in existence of divine power (the God) and everywhere are seeing the signs of his presence, while other people demand a solid prove, being skeptical and doubtful, and , naturally, with such attitude, they will never find any evidence of God’s existence, even if it will be right in front of their eyes.
Tolkien, as devoted Catholic, TRULY believed in divine inspiration, and his impression about his writing experiences had been mentioned him in his letters not just once or twice, this goes like a red thread through all his letters. He was speaking LITERALLY , and I don’t have any reason not to believe that this was his true feelings.
I understand your skepticism.
Me, myself grew up in an atheistic family, where all believes were firmly based on science, but over the years I happened to witness a few miracles and just impossible things to happen, got smart enough to know that our science still in primordial stage and to say “it can’t happen because the science says it could never happen” would be quite silly and premature.
I believe that everything is possible, unless it proved beyond doubt of the other way .

P.S.Recently I read in the “Science” magazine that physics and mathematicians found out and proved that the Universe has at least 18 dimensions, and so far only gravitons are able to travel from one plane to another.
How about our solid earth? It’s all an illusion, next to us exist another worlds, and some of them even crossing over ours, where the time is not linear and can be in past, present and future..
Mind-bogging! What could be on the other side? Stephen King’s “Mist” or a world with “The Black Tower? A prototype of Matrix or really existing world of Middle -earth?
Then, at the crossing over, it ‘s some possibility that we have some portals in another world. Just say ,friend, and enter.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Olmer
I quoted Tolkien’s words, but you can not see, or just don‘t want to see. O.K, then tell us to what conclusion about Moria’s provision you came up after reading the book.?
Do you have some plausible alternative, which is based on the text? Just don’t say that Tolkien didn’t think about it, because, as I see from the study of the text , he DID think about it.

My opinion about Tolkien's writings are not set in stone and discussion here on the Entmoot has made me change my view on some aspects more than once. So it's not that I don't want to see it, I just don't see it yet.

So far I had always assumed that the 100 orcs that entered Lothlórien were not the only party sent out. The Moria-orcs would have had large numbers to draw on and if they wanted to avenge their dead and teach those upstarts that had the audacity to enter Moria a lesson, they wouldn't have sent out only one squad.

It would make sense to send out squads that had about the same number of orcs, so the coincedence that the northerner orcs in the party that captured Merry and Pippin also numbered a hundred is IMO not necesarily an indication that they are the same group that tracked through Lothlórien.

I also assumed Haldir was telling the truth and that those 100 that entered Lothlórien also didn't come out alive again.

About the orcs being loud and very audible, the Elves named them 'the Noice-herd' for a reason and they named them well.

I have not reread the texts in question and am relying on my memory for the moment but I will reread them when the LoTR-project comes to those chapters and I will pay extra attention to this because I think your theory is interesting but I con't subscribe to it yet.

Although, an interesting tidbit that does suit your theory: according to my LoTR-appendices (and if I remember correctly) Lothlórien was attacked thrice from Dol Guldur. Interesting in the fact that -while Moria was closer (at least on my map)- the Moria orcs did not take the chance to attack Lothlórien from two side and catch the Elves between hammer and anvil so to speak. This also ties in nicely in the discussion whether the orcs of Moria were under command of Mordor or the independant command of the Balrog. The latter could explain why the Moria orcs didn't enter the battle to aid Sauron.

[Count Comfect]

Olmer - I still have problems with your numbers.

If "over a hundred" broke away from the fight with the Rohirrim, but "a hundred" were in Lorien then:

I can see that the two could be the same number, except that it would require the Rohirrim to have killed basically no Northerners... which I don't see. Basically, they fought and THEN broke out, so some would die. But if some died then the numbers become

"over a hundred" + some who died vs. "a hundred"

Which seems imbalanced.

[Olmer]

Count ComfectOlmer - I still have problems with your numbers.
I can see that the two could be the same number, except that it would require the Rohirrim to have killed basically no Northerners... which I don't see.

Basically the Northerners did not loose any people at Rauros and Rohirrim have killed just a few of them in the first raid.
Your problem is in assuming that 100+ given after the raid of Rohirrim.Read the chapter carefully.The amount "over a hundred" broke away BEFORE the fight with the Rohirrim, not after.

This is how I see all the numbers.
A troop of 100+ orcs passed through Lorien and went down to Rauros to avenge. They openly showed their intention to kill everybody at Sarn Gebir.
At the same time two other groups of orcs from Isengard and Mordor hided themselves for an ambush and got a “pleasure” to meet Boromir.Twenty at least from this group got killed before Boromir and Hobbits broke away, but then they met “a hundred Orcs at least”(100+), which were shooting arrows, they was not engage in close combat and therefore theirs number was not depleted.
Later all orc groups united for a dangerous trip back to Isengard, and Tolkien gives an amount of each group ,just before they noticed the first scout of the Riders and discord between them broke out: a couple of score( +/-40) -from Mordor, four score at least(80+) - Isengarders and and over a hundred(100+) Northerners.Total - 220+ orcs.

Now, after the first raid of Rohirrim Tolkien gives us an exact number of orcs: fully two hundred remained (200).
220 - 200 = 20. Just +/- twenty orcs had been killed in the first raid The Isengarders have lost 1 person.The Orcs from Mordor, who lagged behind , got hit most of all. The Northerners were far ahead of them, but still behind Isengarders and therefore lost some people for sporadically arrow shooting by the Riders, but still not that much to make any plausible dent in the amount of their unit.

EärnielIt would make sense to send out squads that had about the same number of orcs, so the coincedence that the northerner orcs in the party that captured Merry and Pippin also numbered a hundred is IMO not necessarily an indication that they are the same group that tracked through Lothlуrien

This is VERY GOOD argument. Actually , you cornered me, and it won’t be easy to “wiggle out”.
Of course, I will try, just need a time to review a few chapters.
Say, do you play chess? Nice move.

Eärnielaccording to my LoTR-appendices Lothlуrien was attacked thrice from Dol Guldur. Interesting in the fact that -while Moria was closer (at least on my map)- the Moria orcs did not take the chance to attack Lothlуrien from two side and catch the Elves between hammer and anvil so to speak. This also ties in nicely in the discussion whether the orcs of Moria were under command of Mordor or the independant command of the Balrog. The latter could explain why the Moria orcs didn't enter the battle to aid Sauron.

Thanks for sharing this tidbit, it is really interesting observation.
It’s amazing how much of new information you can “dig out” by careful re-reading and analyzing Tolkien’s book. I‘ve never cease to wonder about it every time when such tidbits surface out of the seems already scrutinized text..

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
...

This is VERY GOOD argument. Actually , you cornered me, and it won’t be easy to “wiggle out”.
Of course, I will try, just need a time to review a few chapters.
Say, do you play chess? Nice move...

She's a smart one, our Eärniel! Was there any particular reason you used the expression wiggle out?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
Then here is arising another question: why all orcs met exactly at Rauros? How did they know that the company will go down the river by boats and won’t take another route? From where the 3 different companies of orcs have got the information where is the best place to ambush the Fellowship?
From those, why advised the company to go to Rauros and provided them with boats - the Lorien’s elves, precisely.

I can easily imagine missing by Professor scene, which had happened down on the ground, while Frodo is sitting in the dark, listening as orcs are passing by.
“Suddenly clad in gray, tall and grim figure appeared in front of the orc’s leader .
“You! Idiots!What the hell you doing here in the middle of the night?” demanded the Elf in shrill whisper.
“Ugh!“ the leader stop dead on the track, tensed, but visibly relaxed, recognizing the Elf.”A-a, Haldir!Glad that you, old monkey, did not fall, yet, from the tree.Think your boys won’t mind our noise. We just passing by, chasing after nine thugs, who barged into our house.All Moria’s floor covered with blood! We are looking for revenge .”
“Get out of here! It ‘s such politics involved in it, that you and I could get expendable without a second thought!
Wait for them near Rauros, they definitely will come there by our boats,”ordered Haldir.
“Ho! So serious? Rauros then…Let’s go, boys!
By the way, Haldir, do you know is bracelet for my girlfriend ready, yet? She is asking me about it every day. Tell them to hurry up. See yua“…

Olmer, I also have a hard time understanding why, even with your theory as a given, that the Elves of Lorien would conspire with the Orcs of Moria in such a way as to actually imperil the Fellowship. Would they want Frodo's Quest to fail? I had not gathered that notion from any of your prior posts.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Would they want Frodo's Quest to fail?

The Lothlorien was the only land in Middle-Earth given the grace, power and immortality of the Rings. With destruction of the One Ring the powers of the other Rings of Power would be abolished and Lothlorien would fade with time , becoming mortal.

More details to it I gave in the answer to Beren 3000 in "Don't touch the water" thread.

[matthew]

I think the Balrog would have taken the ring and dominated middle earth. Definitely. It wouldn't have felt any allegiance to Sauron, and besides, when did anyone give the Ring to someone who they thought could use it better? Frodo once, but certainly no one "evil".

[political statement removed by moderator - not appropriate to forum - post in GM]

[Ossë]

I really can't see any weight in the moria-lorien conspiracy theory. Its like saying that gandalf went round saurons for tea. It goes completly against the grain of the elves, of all the history of middle earth, of everything. If it was true, then everything that tolkien wrote about all the races would have to be questioned. I also think you can read too much into the text. Nope, this theory is utterly impossible.

[jonny5]

I wasn't under the impression that the balrog was very smart... I thought that "bad guy was his name and killing was his game" ;-)

Oh...just wondering....I noticed that you seem to have edited matthew's post... I didn't notice anything about politics in the forum rules, is there a moratorium on that?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by jonny5
Oh...just wondering....I noticed that you seem to have edited matthew's post... I didn't notice anything about politics in the forum rules, is there a moratorium on that?

You're free to talk about politics in the appropriate places. Tolkien forums however, are not the appropriate places. There are a number of existing threads on current issues in GM - and if there's an issue not being discussed that someone wants to talk about, they're free to start a thread on it - just so it all stays within board guidelines (which are posted in a separate thread of GM).

So, it wasn't the 'what'... it was the 'where'.

[Attalus]

Interesting thread. I will just comment on what I think are mistaken ideas. First and foremost, Balrogs are fallen Maiar. They are not stupid, but horribly formidable fighting beings of angelic order. Tolkien said, in the Letters, that the Balrog did not speak because that would increase the terror he hoped to inspire. Interestng, considering the threat display it had just peformed with its wings or shadows or whatever-the-heck they were. As posted before, the breaking-spell that it cast was indicative of quite a high intelligence. If the Balrog had found the Ring, it would have been tempted by it, as were all beings who came into contact with it, even Sam, bless his heart; and corrupted by it, as all were save Sauron. He would have claimed it to try and become the next Dark Lord. The Balrog was not subject to Sauron. If it had been, do you really think that he would not have used it, particularly in the War of the Last Alliance? I am quite certain that they knew of each other, through the Orcs. On the subect of food, Balrogs are not incarnates, they do not need food, as Gandalf might. Finally, the idea of the Elves, especially the Galadrim, bargaining with the Orcs of Moria, is risible. To quote the invaluable Gildor Inglorion, "Is it not enough that they are servants of the Enemy? Fly from them speak no words to them." Do not forget also the torment that the Orcs put Celebrian, Galadriel and Celeborn's daughter to. Do you really think that the Lady of the Galadrim would so forget that to engage in trade? No mithril that I know of, was to be found in Lorien.

[Attalus]

Oh, to clarify the above, I want to say that the Balrog had not been awakened during the War of the Last Alliance. But evil creatures do not bow the knee to others unless conquered or overawed, and the Balrog would have been hard to do either too. As someone else posted, Moria did not belong to Sauron.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by matthew

I think the Balrog would have taken the ring and dominated middle earth. Definitely. It wouldn't have felt any allegiance to Sauron, and besides, when did anyone give the Ring to someone who they thought could use it better? Frodo once, but certainly no one "evil".

[political statement removed by moderator - not appropriate to forum - post in GM]

Maybe he would have felt an allegance to Sauron as he was chief of Morgoths balrogs and Sauron was Morgoths no.2.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Maybe he would have felt an allegance to Sauron as he was chief of Morgoths balrogs and Sauron was Morgoths no.2.

Durin's Bane was not the chief of Morgoth's Balrogs. That was Gothmog, who killed Fëanor and whom Eärendil slew. I very much doubt that Balrogs felt any loyalty to anyone but Morgoth.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Durin's Bane was not the chief of Morgoth's Balrogs. That was Gothmog, who killed Fëanor and whom Eärendil slew. I very much doubt that Balrogs felt any loyalty to anyone but Morgoth.

Actually, Ehtelion killed Gothmog. Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black.

I do think, though, that Sauron was greater than the Balrog, and that he probably had under, as he was once the leader of Angband, Balrogs. I'm not sure how loyal they were though... he could, even though was ruled once by Sauron, take the Ring anyway knowing he'd be stronger than Sauron with it.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Actually, Ehtelion killed Gothmog. Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black.

I do think, though, that Sauron was greater than the Balrog, and that he probably had under, as he was once the leader of Angband, Balrogs. I'm not sure how loyal they were though... he could, even though was ruled once by Sauron, take the Ring anyway knowing he'd be stronger than Sauron with it.

You're right. My wits were woolgathering.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It would make sense to send out squads that had about the same number of orcs, so the coincedence that the northerner orcs in the party that captured Merry and Pippin also numbered a hundred is IMO not necesarily an indication that they are the same group that tracked through Lothlórien.

Finally I got some time to get out of the place you have got me cornered.

Of course it would make sense to send out squads on the chase that had about the same number of orcs. It would, if they would be going in the different direction looking for the Fellowship. But it is only one way from the Moria , and this way leads through Mirrowmere dale and down along the Silverlode river.“There is no other way…unless you would go back to Moria gate, or scale the pathless mountains, or swim the Great River all alone”(FOTR,BookII) tells Aragorn to Boromir. Indeed , between the mountans and Anduin you can go north and south. Hundred miles away the north way was ending into 70 miles lake with steep sides, which has been formed by Gladden river mingled with Anduin’s waters .This two rivers were creating a great and wide marshes of the Gladden fields at the merging point , which from this approach can’t be accessible, because , feeded by Gladden river waters and many other streams, the Great River swells at the south of the Gladden fields and quicken, running through the deep depression. If you don’t want to climb the patheless mountains to get to the other side of the lake, than you have only one option: go back to “the square #1” and lead your search group of orcs as far south as you can. But this the only way has one serious drawback: to go after the Fellowship you have no other way south, but to pass through the Elves’ realm. "East and West land of Lorien was bounded by Anduin and the mountains” merging into Fangorn forest.(UT.The history of Galadriel)
And since…the great watch was now kept since the tidings of Moria.(FOTR, book II, chapt. VI) and the host of Elves was sent
…. to guard against any attack from Moria,” there is no other chance for any other orcs host to get to the west shores of Anduin.