Faith Healings

[Beruthiel's cat]

Originally posted by Lizra
I know a lady who carted her traumatic brain injured son down to Indpls to see Benny Hinn a few years back. Nothing happened...of course.

I remember seeing a bit about Benny Hinn's ministry on one of the network news magazines awhile back (I think it was "20/20" on ABC). Apparently it is very hard to get up close and personal to him unless you are a big contributor. He also has a number of "handlers" that keep the general public away. And they were reluctant to disclose any financial information about how monies collected by the ministry are used (although Hinn does have a very pervasive presence on the cable channels, so I'm sure a lot of money is used to buy air-time...).

Desperate people will take desperate measures. I know of a family that contributes to and sometimes takes their disabled child to sites of purported miracles. The child has improved more by medical intervention, however. But the family is devout and is ever hopeful for a miracle. In my opinion, the child they have is a miracle just as she is.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Since when does being a president mean that you can censor.... oh wait, didn't the white house just try to do that with CNN? (anyone watching david letterman lately?) Of course I think faith healings are a load of cods-wallop, but don't let that stop you. I also happen to think that subliminal thoughts, and positive affirmation can go a long way towards healing body and mind. ::shrug::

I was making a suggestion

[Rían]

I tend to think most TV-type healers are fakes. If you notice the types of healings in the Bible, they're all extremely visually obvious types of problems (leprosy, withered leg, blind) and the people were all well-known by the locals (IOW, not faked "set-ups"). The ones I see on TV are all the invisible types (cancers inside the body but not outwardly visible, people in wheelchairs but not with withered limbs that are visible, etc.)

However I do think that God still performs some miraculous healings today, but I also think the apostolic times were unique and for a special purpose, and won't be repeated.

My Dad had a malignant skin cancer lesion that was miraculously healed. It was diagnosed by a doctor, and it ... just went away, after lots of prayer. The doctor had NO explanation for it - it should NOT have happened.

However, I have a chronic illness that has NOT gone away after much prayer. God has chosen to not heal me at this time; instead, He has used it to teach me many things that I would not otherwise have learned had I continued to be entirely healthy. This can be seen in the Bible, too - Paul had a chronic condition that he asked God to remove, but God chose in His wisdom to let Paul keep that "thorn in the flesh", and taught him many deep things thru it.

However, I will have no illness in eternity and illness in this life is a small price to pay for a good, altho unpleasant, teacher.

[Lalaith_Elf]

However, I have a chronic illness that has NOT gone away after much prayer. God has chosen to not heal me at this time; instead,

That is the same here. When I was first diagnosed with my illness (around 7 years ago), I hadn't fully turned Pagan. Infact I think I was still following Christianity - due to school and parents religious backgrounds - and I prayed and prayed to be healed. This illness - at that time - almost ruined my life. I had to change alot of my lifestyle, I couldn't do some things I really wanted to do, or eat some things. And I hated it. But no matter how much I talked to 'god' nothing ever happened. And maybe it's because I never believed enough, maybe it was because in my heart I never really believed in god. So I stayed sick and I always will. I'm just happier with it all now because I changed my religion, and my belief in Paganism is stronger than it ever was in Christianity.

The way I see it, is that if there is a Christian god, he is still bitter about the Garden of Eden thing, so he lets his 'children' suffer, only occasionally healing the odd one to show his followers that he may still be there.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lalaith_Elf
That is the same here. When I was first diagnosed with my illness (around 7 years ago), I hadn't fully turned Pagan. Infact I think I was still following Christianity - due to school and parents religious backgrounds ...

I was somewhat in this path, but at some point in the growing-up process, a person needs to make their own choices - I am now a Christian based wholly on my own thoughts and observations.

The way I see it, is that if there is a Christian god, he is still bitter about the Garden of Eden thing, so he lets his 'children' suffer, only occasionally healing the odd one to show his followers that he may still be there.

Wow! I'm sorry you have such a bad (and IMO, totally wrong) opinion of God. Why, if He was "bitter", would He have sent His Son to torture and a horrible death to bear the penalty of people's sins? Can you support your opinion from passages in the Bible, or is it just a feeling that you have? For I can give you hundreds of verses that speak of God's love for us, and that He only allows pain and suffering when there is no other alternative (because of our sinful and wrong choices) to achieve His good will for us.

Can you see why God would allow me to have a chronic illness if it would produce wonderful works in my soul that would NOT have occurred otherwise? In the light of eternity, as I said, it is WELL worth it to have some pain in this life if by it my soul is perfected and made Christlike.

[Lalaith_Elf]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Wow! I'm sorry you have such a bad (and IMO, totally wrong) opinion of God. Why, if He was "bitter", would He have sent His Son to torture and a horrible death to bear the penalty of people's sins? Can you support your opinion from passages in the Bible, or is it just a feeling that you have? For I can give you hundreds of verses that speak of God's love for us, and that He only allows pain and suffering when there is no other alternative (because of our sinful and wrong choices) to achieve His good will for us.

This is really just a feeling I have. Like I said before, I have never really believed in god. Whatever teaching I had as a child I overlooked. I have always seen The Bible as a work of fiction and never as something to follow and live my life by. You don't need to be sorry, I don't believe in god or Christianity and my somewhat cynical opinions, have no need for sympathy.

Can you see why God would allow me to have a chronic illness if it would produce wonderful works in my soul that would NOT have occurred otherwise? In the light of eternity, as I said, it is WELL worth it to have some pain in this life if by it my soul is perfected and made Christlike.

No I cannot see why he lets you suffer. I don't see the need for pain and suffering just so you and your soul can be more like Christ. But maybe I am bitter about my own illness, to see that this is somehow a good thing.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

If god has some overall ultimate plan, then it wouldn't matter if we prayed or not, if we were to be healed we would be and if we were to dfie or be sick for longer than we would be. You have to think in terms of the big picture. It's not just 'oh I'll do these people the favor and heal this person' or 'I don't feel like it today', it's whatever qworks out to his plan (assuming a christian perspective). Everything that happens effects the future and if god does have some master plan he will work it out as he wants it, regardless of whether we prayed for it or not.

[brownjenkins]

one word: psychosomatic

i think the power of the human mind may be greater than many give it credit for

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
Everything that happens effects the future and if god does have some master plan he will work it out as he wants it, regardless of whether we prayed for it or not.

Yes, this is definitely true, as far as overall plans.

Yet God "invented" prayer and asks us to do it ... this leads one to wonder why, if in fact prayer will NOT make a difference ... perhaps prayer is not just the "vending machine" thing that it is sometimes thought to be ...

Any thoughts?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
If god has some overall ultimate plan, then it wouldn't matter if we prayed or not, if we were to be healed we would be and if we were to dfie or be sick for longer than we would be. You have to think in terms of the big picture. It's not just 'oh I'll do these people the favor and heal this person' or 'I don't feel like it today', it's whatever qworks out to his plan (assuming a christian perspective). Everything that happens effects the future and if god does have some master plan he will work it out as he wants it, regardless of whether we prayed for it or not.

Theologians bat that around and come up with all sorts of different answers. Some believe that God may well respond to prayers and change certain outcomes regarding various details. I don't know... none of us really does, though some may try to make their best guess of it. Christians ARE instructed to pray though, and there are indications throughout scripture that prayer DOES matter.

My own view of God is more along the lines of pre-knowledge, but NOT pre-ordaining things... that is, God KNOWS how each thing will come out, but He did not DECIDE each little thing... many of the details are determined by our own exercise of free will (regarding such things as our own salvation, things which He may allow to be affected by our prayers, other choices we make, etc) - but as I said before, God is not our waiter, we are His servants.

In the case where I lost my friend, despite continual prayers for his healing - it would have been easy to fall into despair, and many indeed have turned away and 'blamed God' for such losses. However, I saw within myself the growth that had come as I turned to God in prayer... so I prayed for one particular purpose that I had in mind... but God still worked something else good from my prayers, even though He didn't answer according to MY will.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lalaith_Elf
You don't need to be sorry, I don't believe in god or Christianity and my somewhat cynical opinions, have no need for sympathy.

Don't take me wrong - just as YOU would be sorry if I totally misunderstood a very good friend of yours who is very kind and loving, I am sorry, in the same way, that you misunderstand God, who I know and love.

No I cannot see why he lets you suffer. I don't see the need for pain and suffering just so you and your soul can be more like Christ. But maybe I am bitter about my own illness, to see that this is somehow a good thing.

But can you see the concept in a smaller way - if, for example, you had a friend who thought "all whites are terrible people who only care about taking advantage of others!" and then that person got into a car accident and had some painful injuries, and the bystanders who were white assisted him at the risk of injury to themselves, and the ambulance people who were white said "hey, be sure to pick up his wallet and give it to him- I saw it lying on the pavement over there!", and the doctors and nurses who were white were compasionate and helpful, and your friend learned that some whites ARE kind and good - but he would never had really learned this lesson unless he went through pain.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Valandil
My own view of God is more along the lines of pre-knowledge, but NOT pre-ordaining things...

Psalm 139:16
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be

However, I agreed with the rest of our post .

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
If god has some overall ultimate plan, then it wouldn't matter if we prayed or not, if we were to be healed we would be and if we were to dfie or be sick for longer than we would be.

Luke 5:22-25
Jesus knew what [the Pharisees] were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." Immediately he stood in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God.

There are other passages also, which show different reasons. One thing that really stands out in the Scripture is that a person's faith heals them. This tends to imply that faith is one of the lessons that miraculous healings give. Another time a man had an infirmity and God said, "This was done so that God's power might be displayed in his life."

Miracles are huge boosts for faith. They teach us lessons about God. Yes, if God didn't care for sickness he could use practical, scientific methods to see that it was healed every time he wanted it to be. However, both the sickness, the natural recovery, and the miraculous recovery have places in God's plan.

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
You have to think in terms of the big picture. It's not just 'oh I'll do these people the favor and heal this person' or 'I don't feel like it today', it's whatever qworks out to his plan (assuming a christian perspective). Everything that happens effects the future and if god does have some master plan he will work it out as he wants it, regardless of whether we prayed for it or not.

Your prayer is a part of his master plan as well. His answering your prayer was a part of the master plan from the beginning. What this says is that our having communication with God and witnessing his power and presence here on Earth is a part of his plan.

Healing is not just for practicality. God could use natural means to heal, if he just wanted people healed. But he has other plans and aspects of himself that he reveals through the action, which are to his glory and to the spiritual benefit of the creation. As RÃ*an said, sometimes the sickness or pain is used to the spiritual benefit of the creation.

I'm not saying that that's the case all the time. God has a plan behind everything though, sickness, pain, death, and miraculous healing.


You're very smart, Sminty_Smeagol. I really like how you consider these issues.

Originally posted by Mertucio
I don't know about that one...I'll go figure out exactly what I think and why today (maybe have a chat with my Dad ).

Hmm...*begins to ponder deep thougths*

Good idea! I do the same thing sometimes with my Dad, and I think I'm the smarter for it . He who listens to the wise becomes wise . . . (gives an arrogant chuckle)

Originally posted by Mertucio
I'm not saying God couldn't work through the tv--Anything is possible with God. I'm merely saying that because of the different environment/culture we live in now, he might (and I think probably) works differently than he did 2000 years ago. And I also think that these "healers" have truly convinced themselves that they are true Christians (and some of them may be) and because of that can do the same things that Jesus and the Apostles did.

Well, I already assured you that miracles definitely do occur. I'd advise you to pray for more of those experiences. Or, if you wish, check out some of the books I suggested.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Tessar
But Lief if God healed us EVERY time we just asked for it, there would be no pain and suffering to offer up, and no benefit to having pain in the first place.

Perhaps I misspoke. I don't think that God heals us every time we ask for it. Also there are a lot of times we can get healing through scientific means, and don't need supernatural intervention. I don't think God acts quite so frequently for things we can do for ourselves. There are exceptions to that, of course. Like in one of the big revivals in Indonesia, when hospitals were nearly put out of business because of the waves of miraculous healings.

Originally posted by Tessar
It's WONDERFUL every time some one is healed. My grandpa is dieing of Bone Cancer right now and I know I'd like him to be healed, but God hasn't healed him despite prayer, offering masses, or anything else. There HAS to be a benefit to suffering, although of course that's very easy for me to say, now that I'm in good health.

Of course. That's one of the things that makes me feel the least comfortable with some of the writing I do. When I write about suffering and answers to it without ever having experienced it, it really makes me feel somewhat . . . well, it doesn't leave me feeling quite right inside. The main kind of suffering and struggle I've endured is spiritual struggling with sin and, in the past, demons. That stuff was nasty, but was mainly within the mind and soul. It isn't like losing family members or suffering persecution. Writing about what I have not experienced makes me feel rather a jerk, but I also feel I need to do it anyway.

Originally posted by Tessar
Lemme clear something up, would you be Roman Catholic, like myself, or Protestant Lief? Just trying to figure out where, or even if, our ideas might differ slightly.

I'm sure they differ a lot on a lot of things. I'm similar in beliefs to very few Chrisitians that I know of. My beliefs range all over the map. It'd prove difficult to pin me down. I spoke of some of my beliefs to Valandil. He probably knows something of how insane I am .

Gwaimir and I sometimes hold very lengthy email debates. One of those times, he said that he thought I was probably closer to Catholicism than to Protestantism, because we agreed on some things he was surprised at. I don't remember what, in particular, at this moment. I answered with several of my other beliefs, and he was forced to withdraw that remark. (Shrugs)

Originally posted by Tessar
And as for God doing strange things to cause the healing, it's a fact that he could've done it easily enough by just LOOKING at the people. He did it with the gestures so that people would have a sign. I don't think you need to be conked on the head to receive the grace of God. If you need a sign, then make the Cross on their forehead. The 'hitting' thing sounds very showy to me, and designed for a TV audience.

A cross is one sign. Mud in the eyes is another. Passing a handkerchief is another. Touching relics is another. Laying hands on is another. Looking is another. Simple praying without signs is another. The sign of the cross very likely is another (though I haven't heard any of the miracle accounts yet, except from a dramatized rendition of St. Patrick in Ireland). In the Old Testament, they did really weird things. They would throw sticks into water to make the water rise. They would through salt into a spring to make it cast forth pure water. People hit the rivers with their clothes in order to make them open. Etc.

There strikes me as nothing about bopping on the head that is really out of wack with this list.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
one word: psychosomatic

i think the power of the human mind may be greater than many give it credit for

but it wouldnt be possible without the supernatural.
If we were just "material" then we woulndt be able to have a comprehension of the supernatural, because we would solely survive on material, and we wouldnt even think!! thinking is not possible without supernaturalism. sure, we'd have a brain, but it would only be used for figuring out material things.
geez, I am so bad at explaining stuff...

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Valandil
My own view of God is more along the lines of pre-knowledge, but NOT pre-ordaining things...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psalm 139:16
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, I agreed with the rest of our post .

Touche!
Teehee... I could parse words with you Lief, about which days are the ones being ordained, what 'ordained' may mean in that verse and further implications depending on just what one believes about how scripture was inspired. Let's just say I won't concede the point, but acknowledge the validity of alternative viewpoints on the matter of predestination.

I'll get back to your email within a few days on particulars of my beliefs. Thank you very much for yours!

[Millane]

Originally posted by Tessar
Haven't you ever done something and said to a little kid "Now don't tell your mommy I gave you that chocolate, okay?" and known that the kid would probably do it anyways, but hoped that maybe they wouldn't?

or maybe that by saying that you have just given them cause to go and tell there mommy... Manson tried to prove a point about this at one of his concerts just for psychological experiment, he made some paper mache pig and filled it with all sorts of horrid things hung it up before his fans came into the venue and then at the start of the concert handed out sticks to the crowd and said "now dont hit the pig" what happened? of course they hit the pig and got covered in meat (not the most tasteful of experiments im the first to agree )

And of course Jesus was a 'smart-cookie', he was God you know

ill grant you the smart cookie, but you'll have a lot of work before you get me with the God thing

Since when does being a president mean that you can censor....

since Hector became president i guess

I was making a suggestion

just curious but what part of my post was a tad too sacriligious for your tastes i even said Jesus was smart

[Rían]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
but it wouldnt be possible without the supernatural.
If we were just "material" then we woulndt be able to have a comprehension of the supernatural, because we would solely survive on material, and we wouldnt even think!! thinking is not possible without supernaturalism. sure, we'd have a brain, but it would only be used for figuring out material things.
geez, I am so bad at explaining stuff...

edit - nevermind, I thought it was BOP cause you had her avatar!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Millane
ill grant you the smart cookie, but you'll have a lot of work before you get me with the God thing

[Lalaith_Elf]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Don't take me wrong - just as YOU would be sorry if I totally misunderstood a very good friend of yours who is very kind and loving, I am sorry, in the same way, that you misunderstand God, who I know and love.

But can you see the concept in a smaller way - if, for example, you had a friend who thought "all whites are terrible people who only care about taking advantage of others!" and then that person got into a car accident and had some painful injuries, and the bystanders who were white assisted him at the risk of injury to themselves, and the ambulance people who were white said "hey, be sure to pick up his wallet and give it to him- I saw it lying on the pavement over there!", and the doctors and nurses who were white were compasionate and helpful, and your friend learned that some whites ARE kind and good - but he would never had really learned this lesson unless he went through pain.

From that example, yes I can understand that that pain was a good thing. And yes it helps me understand why you like or at least don't mind having your illness, but I still think that there is no need to suffer that much.


Okay, I've just totaly lost my train of thought, I'll be back later. Might go and buy a Bible today....

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
but it wouldnt be possible without the supernatural.
If we were just "material" then we woulndt be able to have a comprehension of the supernatural, because we would solely survive on material, and we wouldnt even think!! thinking is not possible without supernaturalism. sure, we'd have a brain, but it would only be used for figuring out material things.
geez, I am so bad at explaining stuff...

i'm not necessarily discounting the supernatural... or some kind of "energy" that exists within the material world ("use the force luke" )... i just see a tendency to put an external intelligence behind it that i don't find necessary or warranted

psychosomatic means that in some way you are bringing about the changes in yourself, or someone else is triggering you to bring about these changes... it does not attempt to explain how these changes actually happen, just that they are in some way "natural"... yet not understood... at least for now