Tragedy in Spain

[Lizra]

I would think most Spanish people are furious, and the new admin will certainly need to act accordingly... ..do all it it's power to capture and punish the murderers.
Just because Spain pulls out of Iraq (which everyone is going to do soon enough anyway) doesn't mean they are "rolling over" to the terrorists. (It might appear that way in the short shoot, but I don't think so..)
There are many ways to skin a cat. Knee jerk reactions are just a way to blow off...This recent atrocity ensures that this battle is hardly over.
The terrorists are the stupid fools if they think people over the world will tolerate this stuff. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lizra
Rome wasn't built in a day.

Unfortunately I think it may have been sacked in a day. It's always easier, faster and cheaper to destroy than to build... but it certainly is not preferable, as any reasonable person would know.

[Lizra]

Aw shoot Val...It wasn't destroyed in a day either.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lizra
Aw shoot Val...It wasn't destroyed in a day either.

True... just pointing out that the terrorist objective isn't to 'build Rome'... their objective is to destroy it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fat middle
What I wanted to say is that if we want to stop terrorism we have to achieve the collaboration of all countries in order to elliminate their training camps and refuges. And we have also to close all kind of supports to terrorism, even if it seems a break on the liberty of expression or a restriction of democracy levels.

Well in order to break their terrorist camps - we have to treat it as a war. If Iran or Syria allow terrorist camps to be set up in their countries - we can't go around sayng "pretty please, dismantle the terrorist camps" like so many people in the thread seem to want to do.

Action has to be taken and it IS a war and it affects the WHOLE world more so than any war has affected the world since World War II. And for those who think that there aren't any countries involved - there are. Those are the ones whoi support terrorism. That no amount of conjoling, pleading, negotiating nor bribes is going to change. If people want to combat terrorism - this particular kind of terrorism - people had better wake up that it is a war. Since so many people don't view it as a war - tell me what it is. Tell me how YOU would stop it.

As Radagast said - throwing money at terrorist countries are not going to stop terrorism. Look at the Palestinians - every single time there is progress in the peace process - there is some wing of the fanatical palastinian terrorist group that destroys it by purposely attacking. The terrorists have to be eliminated - any country that supports terrorism must pay the price. In order for this to happen though - th western world has to start working together - like we did during World War II. Not haphazardly going back and forth.

And yes - Spain buckled to the will of the terrorists - that is all too plain to see. It is sad but true. "If we didn't get involved in Iraq, we would not have been bombed" that is why the Socialist party was voted in - when they had been losing prior to the attacks.

Lizra - it took ten years to build the Twin Towers - it took 1 hour to bring them down and eight airline tickets. It will take them until 2006 to rebuild ground zero. It took over a year to just get the PATH system running between Jersey City and Lower Manhattan again. It is a lot easier to destroy - than it is to create and build.

[Ruinel]

My friend who lives in Madrid sent an e-mail. She's fine, but the schools all closed down... understandably.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
But how exactly? Would you spend hundreds of million dollars to muslim states, although it would probably not help them at all because all the money is going to the dictator and not the poeple? And that might even increase the terror if the dictator is pro-terrorism.

And you can't really stop the funding, because many of the weapons come from countries like North Korea, China and Iran - and they're not going to stop because the UN tell them (nor if USA or EU).

I don't know if attacking the nations will help, but it might - attacking nations like Iran would probably slow down the terror activity. And better to try that than not doing anything.

What on earth gave you the idea that's what I meant? I never said anything about giving money to muslim states. And it was definitely not what I had in mind.

And I meant funding, not weapons. I was under the impression some terrorist factions had some funding and money on banks in some western countries.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Eärniel
What on earth gave you the idea that's what I meant? I never said anything about giving money to muslim states. And it was definitely not what I had in mind.

And I meant funding, not weapons. I was under the impression some terrorist factions had some funding and money on banks in some western countries.

How are you going to stop the reasons of joining terror organizations, if the reason is economical? (it is sometimes. sometimes just because they hate US, and again you can't really solve this without changing the government)

But what do you think they do with the fundings? Surely not invest in education or so.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well in order to break their terrorist camps - we have to treat it as a war. If Iran or Syria allow terrorist camps to be set up in their countries - we can't go around sayng "pretty please, dismantle the terrorist camps" like so many people in the thread seem to want to do.

are you suggesting we should invade Iran and Syria and Jordan and half a dozen other countries that aren’t cooperating with us in combating terrorism?

If people want to combat terrorism - this particular kind of terrorism - people had better wake up that it is a war. Since so many people don't view it as a war - tell me what it is. Tell me how YOU would stop it.

as nifty as all the chest thumping are war rallying may be, I think the most important thing we can do is use our financial power toward reeducation. Granted that’s a long long term project but I fear its being forgotten at the expense of the blow em up now mentality. Sure we need to preempt lethal force with lethal force of our own when necessary but we really need to focus more on teaching a new generation of muslims around the world that theres no reason to hate us quite so much. The terrorists themselves help fund many of the madrases where kids are tought to devalue westerners to the point of not thinking anything of killing them. It costs them $75 per person PER YEAR to do this! Now if they can do this why cant we pour millions into doing this in the opposite direction. Why cant we fund our own madras-like schools and burry them at their own game. Of course it would have to have no obvious ties to us. But if the terrorists can use this tactic then I don’t see why we cant do the same to promote understanding and peace. I really haven’t heard a thing about this approach to fighting terrorism and extremist fundamentalism. Hopefully its part of our overall plan and is just being done covertly. But I sure hope they don’t limit funding on that approach so that we can have a few more tanks for invading random countries with.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
are you suggesting we should invade Iran and Syria and Jordan and half a dozen other countries that aren’t cooperating with us in combating terrorism?

Not right now - but if they continue to - then yes. Did Soviet Union go around Poland to get to Germany? Are you suggesting that if terrorists are able to make a happy home in iran and Syria that we should just throw up our hands and say - "oh well we tried to get them out - but they just won't listed." No - if a country sponsors terrorism - they should consider it an act of war.

as nifty as all the chest thumping are war rallying may be, I think the most important thing we can do is use our financial power toward reeducation.

How? Have you read what is tought in most of the Madrasas? The hatred? They aren't getting funding from the US, they aren't going to change their education becuse we give them money. how do you plan on educating them?

Granted that’s a long long term project but I fear its being forgotten at the expense of the blow em up now mentality.

it's not being forgotten - but more than one method needs to be utilized. It has to be a combination of force, support - like we are giving to Pakistan and other Muslim countries, and negotiation. it seems like most people just want to blame the US for the terrorism. Sween on the "terrorist thread" is basically saying that we got what we deserved. That our companies should stop selling to muslim countries because they're religious don't like it.

Sure we need to preempt lethal force with lethal force of our own when necessary but we really need to focus more on teaching a new generation of muslims around the world that theres no reason to hate us quite so much.

How do you propose doing that when they have no freedoms, no free press, no democracy? They get spoon fed this stuff about us. The Iraq war is about developing a thriving democracy - and showing the Middle Eastern people that can be free and can have all the stuff that the West has and can have a successful life and can have religious freedom. The US didn't prevent the Shites from their religious ceremonies, we are "letting" them have their religious freedom. However, it is in the worlds best interest that Iraq succeed as a successful democracy. The new Spanish PM and most of the world is completely ignorant of the fact that Iraq becoming a democracy should be the goal of the whole world. That this will have an overall affect on the region.

The terrorists themselves help fund many of the madrases where kids are tought to devalue westerners to the point of not thinking anything of killing them. It costs them $75 per person PER YEAR to do this! Now if they can do this why cant we pour millions into doing this in the opposite direction.

We are. But it is very difficult to counteract the fanatical clerics. How much money does the US spend on education and people still go to the Moonies and the Karishes of the US. Al Qaeda is a terrorist cult and NOT all the money of the Marasas are supplied by terrorist groups - A LOT of the money comes from the governments themselves.

Why cant we fund our own madras-like schools and burry them at their own game. Of course it would have to have no obvious ties to us. But if the terrorists can use this tactic then I don’t see why we cant do the same to promote understanding and peace. I really haven’t heard a thing about this approach to fighting terrorism and extremist fundamentalism. Hopefully its part of our overall plan and is just being done covertly. But I sure hope they don’t limit funding on that approach so that we can have a few more tanks for invading random countries with.

Time did a huge article on the Madras and how the US was trying to get governments to change the hatred that is spewed out from them. I have quoted from that article numerous times. It isn't that easy and it takes time and not all governments are cooperating. Look at what happened to Iran with the fanatical clerics, they just took Iran back 20 years by outlawing the reformists from running.

We have our tanks and planes in the ready - as we should. There are always multiple ways to win a war - even World War II wasn't won with just guns and ammo - it took intelligence information, spies, negotiations, etc. This is all beiung used in this war too. And I will continue to call it a war - becuase that is what it is. A world war.

[Katie of the Golden Wood]

You can't stop terrorism by invading countries. If Syria stops supporting them they'll go someplace else. Terrorists don't blow up buildings, people, and themselves because governments fund them to do it, they do it because they have been brainwashed into a twisted view of the world around them. Schools teach children to believe that Americans were put on Earth to try to destroy Muslims and the Islamic faith.

Education is the only way to stop terrorism. If people aren't brainwashed to believe that America is evil and murdering innocent civilians will bring them to paradise there would be a serious drop in terrorism rates. Organizations are already being established by a man in Pakistan to educate women and men about world affairs in a balanced way and they need to be expanded.

Katie

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood
You can't stop terrorism by invading countries. If Syria stops supporting them they'll go someplace else. Terrorists don't blow up buildings, people, and themselves because governments fund them to do it, they do it because they have been brainwashed into a twisted view of the world around them. Schools teach children to believe that Americans were put on Earth to try to destroy Muslims and the Islamic faith.

So you say that if countries are harboring terrorists and making a happy home there - nothing should happen to that country? That the world should just accept it - because the terrorists will go somewhere else? With that sort of reasoning - then why do we do anything?

Education is the only way to stop terrorism. If people aren't brainwashed to believe that America is evil and murdering innocent civilians will bring them to paradise there would be a serious drop in terrorism rates. Organizations are already being established by a man in Pakistan to educate women and men about world affairs in a balanced way and they need to be expanded.

That is only one part of the solution. it's great to have the peaceful stuff in there - but that is only one part that is required to beat terrorism. How many 9/11s and Madrids do we sustain while we wait for a few people to be "reeducated"?

[Lizra]

Originally posted by jerseydevil


Lizra - it took ten years to build the Twin Towers - it took 1 hour to bring them down and eight airline tickets. It will take them until 2006 to rebuild ground zero. It took over a year to just get the PATH system running between Jersey City and Lower Manhattan again. It is a lot easier to destroy - than it is to create and build.

Look you young whippersnapper ....you can take your little rolleyes and retire them. They are not necessary. ( unless you simply want to alienate people by flamebaiting ) I'd like to think we are discussing the different ways some of us veiw this situation, which might bring forth better understanding, not insulting everyone who slightly disagrees. I don't wear boxing gloves all day long.

Now....I was refering to destroying countries, and people's ideals...you know ....terroism is murder....murderers should not go unpunished. That type of thing. I don't think the people of Spain will forgive and forget, It will take some time for them to get over the initial shock for one thing, especially on the eve of a change in government. The USA got angry, I would imagine many Spanish folks will have that reaction also.....?
I know the towers came down fast..... spare me the condescending attitude Mr Know-it all.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lizra
Look you young whippersnapper ....you can take your little rolleyes and retire them. They are not necessary. ( unless you simply want to alienate people by flamebaiting ) I'd like to think we are discussing the different ways some of us veiw this situation, which might bring forth better understanding, not insulting everyone who slightly disagrees. I don't wear boxing gloves all day long.

Listen you oldtimer. I will you use rolleyes when I feel like it. People use them repeatedly on me - before I ever used them.

Now....I was refering to destroying countries, and people's ideals...you know ....terroism is murder....murderers should not go unpunished. That type of thing. I don't think the people of Spain will forgive and forget, It will take some time for them to get over the initial shock for one thing, especially on the eve of a change in government. The USA got angry, I would imagine many Spanish folks will have that reaction also.....?

It's great they got angry - I know they got angry - they also voted in someone that is not going to support the US 0 which EXACTLY what the terrorists wanted. In terrorist thread Sween said the US was playing right into the hands of the terrorists - well Spain did exactly that in their elections. People voted in the heat of the moment.

I know the towers came down fast..... spare me the condescending attitude Mr Know-it all.

Well then why did you make the ridiculous statements that "Aw shoot Val...It wasn't destroyed in a day either." if you knew it? It is very easy to destroy very difficult to build. There are manyy ways to destroy the west - one is economically. Which repeated bombings WILL do and it won't take decades, because they don't have to spend that much to do massive damage. And Lizra - I don't really care if you get pissed at me - I really if anyone gets pissed at me anymore - so spare me the lectures.

[Lizra]

The "it" that wasn't destroyed in a day was Rome....a country, not a building.
Well, I guess I'll just forget manners when it comes to you. Bleah.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lizra
The "it" that wasn't destroyed in a day was Rome....a country, not a building.
Well, I guess I'll just forget manners when it comes to you. Bleah.

You were the one that got on my case. I really would like to see those manners you speak of though. Sorry you can't take the rolleyes.

You are obviously very thin skinned if you were so offended by this...

Lizra - it took ten years to build the Twin Towers - it took 1 hour to bring them down and eight airline tickets. It will take them until 2006 to rebuild ground zero. It took over a year to just get the PATH system running between Jersey City and Lower Manhattan again. It is a lot easier to destroy - than it is to create and build.

Rome is a city - not a country. It was the Roman Empire - Rome was only the City though. And you can destroy a city in no time - just have a nuclear bomb shipped over.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Okay, okay, Lizra and JD, chill out.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
We have our tanks and planes in the ready - as we should. There are always multiple ways to win a war - even World War II wasn't won with just guns and ammo - it took intelligence information, spies, negotiations, etc. This is all beiung used in this war too. And I will continue to call it a war - becuase that is what it is. A world war.

I see your point about the war and about attacking countries that allow training camps (though I don't quite agree), but what I wonder: against who is this war?

The USA is making war against Al-Qaeda, but what are they doing against other groups? ETA, latin-america groups, the IRA... They have been ot there for decades... where has been that war against them?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fat middle
I see your point about the war and about attacking countries that allow training camps (though I don't quite agree), but what I wonder: against who is this war?

The USA is making war against Al-Qaeda, but what are they doing against other groups? ETA, latin-america groups, the IRA... They have been ot there for decades... where has been that war against them?

Those are internal strifes in their countries. IRA - against the occupation of Ireland, ETA against Spain. The US doesn't even get directly involved between the palestinians and the Israelis. However, even though we aren't directly fighting them, we supported Britain in their war against the IRA - not sure about ETA though.

By the way - we aren't making war against Al Qaeda - Al Qaeda declared war against the west.

[Earniel]

But what do you think they do with the fundings? Surely not invest in education or so.

Have I said they would? I'm merely pointing out that if the terrorist keep a part of their funding in Western countries, those countries can act on that and freeze it.