Official 2004 Super Bowl Thread

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
my view is that what Janet did was basically a rape. Not on the same "intensity" level as what is usually referred to as rape, but in the same league, because IMO, a rape is a sexual act forced on someone that doesn't want it, by a person with power.

Well, by this token Rian wouldn't almost all advertising and pop videos featuring teenage girlies gyrating around with bits of string covering their dangly bits (are you with me IRex?) count as rape? If anything, that would be worse, since there's a specific intent behind the image.

[brownjenkins]

not only that... but the implication would be that anything some group of people did not like would be wrong

plus, nobody is forced to watch the superbowl... or even tv for that matter... it works for the amish

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
plus, nobody is forced to watch the superbowl... or even tv for that matter... it works for the amish

And maybe a lot more of us will start to see how well that works for us. But I'm sure CBS and the NFL wouldn't like to see that. BTW - heard the other night and mentioned in the 'Teacup Cafe' thread that the average American child, if he/she continues through an average life doing as they are now, will spend the equivalent of TEN YEARS watching TV... maybe we ALL need to find other pursuits.

Back to this though, I disagree with equating what happened to rape (EDIT: though I do get what Rian is saying about it), but still object to it strongly. It was totally inappropriate. As I said before, I intended to watch a football game, not a peep show - and had no idea (nor any reason to suppose) that I'd get the latter along with it. It was wrong. Further, it 'raises the bar' for the NEXT publicity-starved celebrity to do the NEXT big-time stunt for shock value.

I'm tired of being shocked... it's beginning to wear on me.

[brownjenkins]

though it didn't bother me (or my kids) much... one thing i do agree with is that people should be able to know what to expect to see on tv and be able to control it if they wish to

i'd rather see tv even more open than it is today, but ratings and the ability to block programming if you so choose should also be more accessible

with today's technology, i wouldn't be surprised if we see this happen over the coming years

[The Gaffer]

Yes, an isn't there also some stats on how many simulated murders a child will have seen by the time they reach adulthood? It's funny how violence is perceived to be more acceptable (in general: not suggesting that anyone here has that view) than sex.

Another thought, as someone who is fairly ignorant of American Football, is that I associate cheerleaders with the entertainment that goes along with the game. To what extent are they literally cheerleaders and to what extent are they there to provide pretty girlies for the blokes to leer at?

[brownjenkins]

at the college level there is a certain degree of tradition to cheerleaders (male and female)... and many view it as another athletic sport (there are competitions outside of football)

in the nfl it is mostly, if not completely, eye-candy

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Yes, an isn't there also some stats on how many simulated murders a child will have seen by the time they reach adulthood? It's funny how violence is perceived to be more acceptable (in general: not suggesting that anyone here has that view) than sex.

Another thought, as someone who is fairly ignorant of American Football, is that I associate cheerleaders with the entertainment that goes along with the game. To what extent are they literally cheerleaders and to what extent are they there to provide pretty girlies for the blokes to leer at?

On the latter, definitely the latter - and for those TV shots at the end of timeouts, etc. Da Coach, Mike Ditka got rid of 'the Honeybees' - the former cheerleaders for the Chicago Bears. We haven't had any since. Not sure how many other NFL teams don't have them.

On the former, this is not intended as a lame defense of TV violence, but the violence is at least (generally) depicted as something wrong which bears consequences. TV depicts sex as lacking consequences. The violence is still bad (and not depicted as 'wrong' when performed by a 'good guy' on 'bad guys') and has a severe desensitizing effect on our children, IMO.

[The Gaffer]

I agree with you there. Mostly, violence is depicted as being OK, even desirable, as long as you are the good guy.

I'm not sure about the desensitisation thing. I think it's worse with sex than with violence. Kids are very good (IMO) at telling the difference between depictions of violence and real life. Sexual imagery is much more pervasive, and associated with all sorts of messages (smoke these tabs and you'll get to do it with all these women). I wonder if that contributes more to the commoditisation of sex (which I guess would be at the root of objections to JJ's flashing incident) than an explicit nipple-showing.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Well, by this token Rian wouldn't almost all advertising and pop videos featuring teenage girlies gyrating around with bits of string covering their dangly bits (are you with me IRex?) count as rape? If anything, that would be worse, since there's a specific intent behind the image.

well if thats rape then like Kurt Kobain said RAPE ME AGAIN. But then Janet Jackson isnt a gyrating teenage girlie unfortunately. And I wasnt meaning to trivialize Rians point. I dont agree that she should equate this with rape. I think that trivializes rape which is simply something we dont want to do. BUT I think she has a point about it being forced on us when we werent looking for it at that moment. For me it was just disgusting and pathetic not cause im a prude or a christian who doesnt like nakedness but because it ruined a good football game really and it just seems so pathetic and parasitic if you ask me. I also agree with whoever said they are getting tired of being shocked. its getting old. give it a rest. I dont need hollywood sticking tubes down my throat and in my eyes forcing me to consume all this garbage. Personally I rarely watch TV or listen to pop music or buy brand name products for the very reason that I think its all drivel and crap and I have better things to do. Its amazing how many people agree to pay money to be walking billboards for such garbage. But then brain washing is alive and well in many forms I suppose. rant rant rant...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
because you made seeing a breast seem so wrong?

No, no, no - it's not wrong to see a breast, IMO, in the right context (my husband can see mine anytime he wants to, and I love teasing him over the phone!) - what I think was wrong was the deception and the forcing of the sexual act by a person with the power to be on tv, on those who don't want it.

I'm sure plenty of people DID enjoy it, which is entirely their business, but there are also plenty of people that, if you would have asked them, would have emphatically DECLINED to see her breast, and so forcing it on them in a deceptive manner (IOW, the show on tv was the Super Bowl, not "let's see Janet's boob!") was wrong, IMO. Thank goodness my husband and son think half-time shows are silly, and they always go outside during halftime to toss the football around.

If you, personally, think there was nothing wrong with it, then there's no logical reason for you to feel "dirty" at all! (and this brings up the whole question of God's implanting a moral code in people's hearts - IOW, why DID you feel "dirty" if you have no logical objections to seeing a woman's breast? But that's another thread ... ) And I certainly wasn't trying to make you feel that way. If you do what you think is right, then good for you!!

Please remember, people, that I DID say that it wasn't equivalent, but just in the same class, as rape, in terms of power and forcing things that aren't wanted.

BTW, I think the human body is incredibly beautiful - it's just that I think it is so special, that it should be saved only for your spouse.

[Rían]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Well, by this token Rian wouldn't almost all advertising and pop videos featuring teenage girlies gyrating around with bits of string covering their dangly bits (are you with me IRex?) count as rape? If anything, that would be worse, since there's a specific intent behind the image.

No. We avoid the pop video channels by CHOICE - there's no deception involved (IOW, the video channels are clearly labelled as such. They don't pop up in the middle of Sesame Street).

And as far as advertising, that's what the tv remote control is for - if it's stupid enough, we change channels. Again, the choice is ours, and we know that there is no nudity allowed in commercials.

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
at the college level there is a certain degree of tradition to cheerleaders (male and female)... and many view it as another athletic sport (there are competitions outside of football)

I've watched those before - they're really fun!

in the nfl it is mostly, if not completely, eye-candy

No kidding The college/high school competitions are really fun to watch, but I feel kinda sorry for the pro-sports cheerleaders, tho.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
No, no, no
If you, personally, think there was nothing wrong with it, then there's no logical reason for you to feel "dirty" at all! (and this brings up the whole question of God's implanting a moral code in people's hearts - IOW, why DID you feel "dirty" if you have no logical objections to seeing a woman's breast? But that's another thread ... ) And I certainly wasn't trying to make you feel that way. If you do what you think is right, then good for you!!

ah no I guess you didnt notice the tongue in my cheek when I said that. I mean come on now Rian do you really think anything could make me feel dirty and ashamed? This is me we are talking about. I just thought it was boring and pathetic. Thats all.

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
not only that... but the implication would be that anything some group of people did not like would be wrong

I'm not saying it's wrong for anyone else - just that for those that don't care to see anyone naked except their spouse, then it's only fair to not have nudity in things like the SuperBowl, where it was not only not advertised, it was against FCC (or whatever group oversees TV) regulations.

Originally posted by brownjenkins
one thing i do agree with is that people should be able to know what to expect to see on tv and be able to control it if they wish to

This is what I mean I hate deception.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I mean come on now Rian do you really think anything could make me feel dirty and ashamed?

Yes

[Insidious Rex]

You must have QUITE an imagination then.

[Rían]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
For gawd's sake, there's nothing more natural in this world than a pair of women's breasts. I refuse to even consider for a moment that this is even on the same playing field as rape. Let's not forget that in the not so distant past, it was wrong for a woman to show her ankles. And by god, if it weren't illegal to go topless around here, I'd be flashing me boobies with the best of 'em.

The point is lack of consideration of others, and taking advantage of power to do something that is illegal as well as something that you know a lot of people would not like. It's abuse of power, deception, and just plain bullying, IMO.

And back when it was wrong to show ankles, then it would have been equally wrong for a well-known woman to invite people to a children's party, then during the middle of telling a children's story, intentionally lift her dress and show her ankles, knowing that it would grieve and distress people. It's the same thing - misuse of power to intentionally deceive and hurt people.

And again, it's nowhere near as bad as rape. Rape is truly a horrible thing, and I imagine most women have a fear of it; I know that I do. I can imagine few things worse than rape.

But the point was it was the same TYPE of offense, IMO. Just something to think about, that's all. But I think I'm right

[brownjenkins]

RÃ*an
(IOW, the show on tv was the Super Bowl, not "let's see Janet's boob!")

watch out... this may give the network's an idea for a new reality show "let's see *insert celeb's* boob!"

good to see you back among the postin' btw

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
You must have QUITE an imagination then.

No, I just know you ...

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
good to see you back among the postin' btw

Thanks