10-10-2006, 02:19 PM | #41 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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Wow! *stares blanky at post* ummmmm, can someone summerize those two posts in to easy to read chunks of text
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10-10-2006, 02:54 PM | #42 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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However, my problem with this mentality is the lack of guidance on Eru's part. In Melkor he created a being most like himself with all the freedoms, powers, curiousities, etc.; yet he did not seem to take much role in guiding his child other than a purely authoritarian one. This works fine with a lesser being like Manwe, but when you create a near equal, you must treat him as such. It's like the difference between telling your child what to do and what not to do "because you said so" or actually clueing him or her in on the realities of life, the big plan, and letting them find their way to the proper choices on their own. Melkor wanted to be an active part in his father's creation, and he was disappointed when his own creations were frowned upon. Thus, it became an antagonistic relationship. Basically, Eru did not allow Melkor to use his gifts to their fullest with him, so Melkor ended up using them against him.
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10-12-2006, 01:41 AM | #43 | |
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I reject that presumption out of hand. In fact, I would assert quite the contrary, the Eru, as creator, knew the precise measure of of his creation and set out a path which would have used those abilities to the utmost. An unfallen Melkor would be greater, by far, than the weak and twisted pitiable thing which he would become. The lesson is this: not that Melkor lacked guidance, but that he possessed it in abundance. Eru laid out a divine plan which was best, which was perfect, if only he would have followed it. Melkor still fell; undeniably, inexcusably, unrepentantly, as a result of his own choice and nothing else. That is the long and short of it, the essential nature of the tragedy, that Melkor might have chosen differently but he did not, that he could have repented and been redeemed but he was not, and that all things may have been otherwise, if not for a single creation who made a choice.
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10-12-2006, 09:49 AM | #44 | |||
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And afterwords Eru says: Quote:
Quote:
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10-12-2006, 07:49 PM | #45 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-12-2006 at 07:50 PM. |
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10-13-2006, 02:31 PM | #46 | |
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10-14-2006, 04:08 AM | #47 |
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But if it was all part of the plan, then Melkor did not have a choice in the matter - he was created to rebel, and thus relieved of any moral responsibility. That is clearly not the case in Tolkien's paradigm.
The very nature of free will necessitates the possibility that Melkor, if created, might rebel and turn to evil, and that, when offered a chance at salvation, he might reject it and continue to rebel. It isn't the case that he must rebel - the idea of evil cannot exist without free will, and free will cannot exist without choice. This is why you see Manwe and the others releasing Morgoth after the agreed-upon amount of time. Because he could have sincerely repented and returned to his rightful place - he did not, but that was his choice to make, and it was not their place to take it from him.
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10-14-2006, 11:34 PM | #48 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-15-2006, 12:32 AM | #49 |
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I like to think that the world is perfect as it is, warts and all.
To think otherwise is to accuse Eru, or, The One, of imperfection, which does not seem possible within the scheme of things.
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10-15-2006, 05:01 AM | #50 | |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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10-15-2006, 10:22 AM | #51 | |
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Semantical arguement, perhaps, but if there is only One, than that is perfection, since there is no other.
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10-15-2006, 11:59 AM | #52 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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What i meant was: how can anyone be absalotly perfect? i mean, that's impossible.
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10-15-2006, 12:22 PM | #53 | |
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10-15-2006, 02:16 PM | #54 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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i couldn't care less whether he created everything, he's still imperfect in his own way.
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10-16-2006, 11:42 AM | #55 | |||
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Quote:
Other writings have even pointed to Dagor Dagorath being foretold by Mandos, who must have remembered it from the music. If Eru didn't know Melkor's ultimate fate, why include a last battle in the music? Quote:
At best, the creator knows his creation will turn evil and lets it happen; there is free will, but the creator knows how that free will will be exercised and the creator chooses to let it exist in his creation. At worst, the creator actually intends to have evil as part of the picture; there is no true free will, only the perception of it because no one but the creator sees the big picture.
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