Divorce

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

well, custody is easy. Both my parents live in the same town (my dad rents a house) so im with my mom mondays and tuesdays, my dad wensdays and thursdays, then one parent friday-sunday at noon, then the other on sunday, then it switches.

[Starr Polish]

Sounds confusing to me.

Custody in my family (at least for me, my older sister is now in her twenties, and my stepsiblings have some weird system) is every other weekend with Dad, Tuesdays on weeks he doesn't have me that weekend, Thursdays otherwise. Those are the days he has off.

GW, you can always ask. Parents usually dont' mind TOO much if you'r being respectful about the questions. I must admit, lately I haven't been very respectful to my mother, but she's driving me mad.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Anyone know any divorced people?

Opinions as to whether the divorce(s) was a good or bad thing, for the partners, for the family in general?

[The last sane person]

For all the people I know, it turned out to be the best thing possible. But then, all the people I know are abusive ****tarts. Least the kids turned out okay, I think that, for the families i've observed, for the kids, it was way better for their parents to separate. Saved them a lot of pain.

[Lief Erikson]

This decline in traditional moral values is causing a lot of pain, according to available evidence taken from Britain.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6545921.stm
Divorce and sexual partnerships outside of wedlock are contributing to "family breakdown and social isolation," for many people.

Here are key quotes. Bolds are added.

Originally Posted by BBC News

The latest annual statistical review of British society finds that a quarter of children now live with just one parent - the vast majority are single mothers.

Originally Posted by BBC News

Last Updated: Wednesday, 11 April 2007, 16:30 GMT 17:30 UK

E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Big change to 'Janet and John' story
By Mark Easton
BBC home editor

Once upon time it was Janet and John - mum and dad, married with a couple of kids. Today the story is very different.


The report highlights a rise in relationship breakdowns

The latest annual statistical review of British society finds that a quarter of children now live with just one parent - the vast majority are single mothers.

Few young people set out in life with the aim of bringing up a family on their own and yet, increasingly, that is how it ends up.

The number of lone mums bringing up three or more children has trebled since the 1970s.

How has this come about?

The implication of the statistics is that Britain is going through an epidemic of relationship breakdown.

Marriage low

We now have the lowest number of marriages since records began.

In 1972 there were 480,000. The latest annual figure is 284,000.

We're now seeing the consequences of this inconstancy in relationships.

Originally Posted by BBC News

Youngsters are tending to flee the nest later - around six out of 10 men are still living with their parents when they are 24 - partly a consequence of staying in education longer but also because of the difficulty in finding somewhere they can afford to live.

When they do finally set off on their own, larger numbers of young people end up living alone.


Fears about anti-social behaviour concern many

Back in 1971 three million people were on their own. Today it is seven million - 29% of all households have just one person in them.

The numbers of men and women aged 25 to 44 who live alone has doubled in the past 20 years.

Among middle-aged men there has also been a doubling, one in six males in that age-group live by themselves, in part a consequence of relationship breakdown.

The increase among women - who tend to look after the children - is much less steep. They are usually the ones who look after the children.

The consequence is communities with higher levels of isolation and lower levels of trust.

Back in 1958, 60% of people thought most people were trustworthy.

Today it is 29% and still going down - a sign that the glue which holds our society together is weakening.

The loss of what is called "social capital" may explain an almost five-fold increase in complaints about neighbours in the past 20 years.

Arguments over noise are often put down to 'selfish attitudes' or 'incompatible lifestyles with neighbours', further evidence of atomisation.

Fears about crime and anti-social behaviour are another indicator.

BBC's article, and this surprises me as I've always found BBC to lean toward the left, connects this weakening of the "glue which holds society together," with lack of trust stemming in part from the decrease in marriages in proportion to relationships outside of wedlock, and the high divorce rate, both of which contribute, according to this article, to poverty, social isolation, the collapse of family structure, inter-neighborhood distrust and single parenting. The summarization of this grim look at the social results of divorce and sex outside of marriage is found in the claim that this is, "a sign that the glue which holds our society together is weakening."

That is a very heavy statement. These events that BBC puts together also fit together very logically.

Partnerships outside of wedlock do not include the vow that the couple will remain together, "till death do us part." As BBC notes, they are more likely to end in splits than marriages, though marriages nowadays too are collapsing. But the results of both are very negative, for a split will often lead to single parenting, which leads to poverty. Poverty will naturally lead to children leaving their parents later, and has commonly been seen as a contributor to crime. BBC remarks that relationship break-downs also can lead to anti-social behavior. This can cause more isolation, to more discord within communities because of people not getting along and not being used to one another.

The negative impact of this failure to commit to relationships that will endure has a very negative impact upon mothers, who are stuck often with raising the children, upon the fathers, who according to BBC are now more likely to live by themselves, and upon the children, who suffer through poverty and other problems.

It's a grim downward spiral that makes logical sense, and BBC has connected the dots.

[Lotesse]

Oh! Jesus, Lief, what was that long-ass damn post even about? Listen, do you know any divorced people, and what are your _-- YOUR -- opinons --- OPINIONS, not "sources", about whether their divorce was a gfood or bad thing, for the couple YOU KNEW, or for the family whom YOU KNEW in general?? Focus, man Focus!!

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Anyone know any divorced people?

Opinions as to whether the divorce(s) was a good or bad thing, for the partners, for the family in general?

FOCUS!

And yes, I know divorced people, my parents divorced when I was three, so there's them. Almost everybody I know has divorced parents. People who have problems with divorce tend, in the great majority, to be people who have strong emotional faith-based ideas about what marriage ought to be, according to their god. I've got an entire lifetime of experience and observation to account for thids observation, so simmer down, there, Lief, with your "where's your source and documentation please" malarkey. Just cool it, li'l buddy, Okay? my god.

[Jonathan]

Arien the Maia started a good thread on the subject back in the days - Divorce

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Anyone know any divorced people?

Opinions as to whether the divorce(s) was a good or bad thing, for the partners, for the family in general?

I know several divorced people. For most of them and their families the divorces have been a good thing in general.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

not "Single persons" or "single parent households", and evidence is restricted, in the main, to direct personal observation.

[Lief Erikson]

Single parent households and single persons are a common result of divorce, so (moderators, correct me if I'm wrong) discussing them is on-topic.


The article I posted discussed the results of both divorce and sexual partnerships outside of wedlock. The alternative to marriage, the topic, is sexual relationships outside of marriage. So both parts of the article are on-topic.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Oh! Jesus, Lief, what was that long-ass damn post even about? Listen, do you know any divorced people, and what are your _-- YOUR -- opinons --- OPINIONS, not "sources", about whether their divorce was a gfood or bad thing, for the couple YOU KNEW, or for the family whom YOU KNEW in general?? Focus, man Focus!!

*Frowns.* What's wrong with supporting my opinions about divorce and relationship break-up with sources?


I've known two different divorced families, and one woman whose parents were divorced. Though she is in her twenties and working, she nearly broke down in tears when talking with me and some other students about that divorce. It was terribly painful and emotionally scarring for her.

As to the two other families:
1) In the first case, I know one parent and not his children and spouse. He said that he suffered terribly when his wife divorced him.

2) I know the children better than the parents in this case, but I know that one of the people, a friend whom I greatly respect, feels intense bitterness toward her mother because of the disintegration of her parents' relationship.

She feels that the divorce might have been a good thing, because her parents were so nasty to one another and her mother would not repair their relationship. However, her bitterness toward her mother stems from her mother's refusal to repair a situation that was largely the mother's own making.


In every case I've seen, the relationship break-down, and in two cases the divorce itself, caused a great deal of pain. The fruit of this practice is very, very bitter indeed.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

I know several divorced people. For most of them and their families the divorces have been a good thing in general.

Here is a severe problem. I doubt that you and I would interpret the data the same way. If I saw the evidence of the same divorces as you, Lotesse, brownjenkins or other liberals have seen, I don't think I'd come to the same conclusions. By the same token, you probably wouldn't come to the same conclusions as I did regarding the marriage break-downs I've witnessed, if you saw them. I highly doubt that it's coincidence that you've seen all the good divorces and I've seen all the ugly ones.

So we can't get anywhere in this topic based upon personal experience alone. We need evidence that extends beyond our own experiences, if we are to understand this issue. I provided evidence about the negative impact of divorce and relationship break-up in my first post on this thread.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Single parent households and single persons are a common result of divorce, so discussing them is on-topic.

No, they're not, in the article you posted. It may be convenient to your argument to lump together people who never commit, people who are divorced, people who are widowed, and people who have children either within or outside of committed relationships other than marriage, but it isn't part of THIS topic.

I know, because I posted this topic, and that's how I designed it.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The article I posted discussed the results of both divorce and sexual partnerships outside of wedlock. The alternative to marriage, the topic, is sexual relationships outside of marriage. So both parts of the article are on-topic.

No, the topic is divorce. Since divorce is not equivilent to "anything that's not marriage" those things are not germane.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Here is a severe problem. I doubt that you and I would interpret the data the same way. If I saw the evidence of the same divorces as you, Lotesse, brownjenkins or other liberals have seen, I don't think I'd come to the same conclusions. By the same token, you probably wouldn't come to the same conclusions as I did regarding the marriage break-downs I've witnessed, if you saw them. I highly doubt that it's coincidence that you've seen all the good divorces and I've seen all the ugly ones.

So we can't get anywhere in this topic based upon personal experience alone. We need evidence that extends beyond our own experiences, if we are to understand this issue. I provided evidence about the negative impact of divorce and relationship break-up in my first post on this thread.

The "severe problem". at this point, is that this is a new study. It is not a literature review. We are polling for new data, which we will interpret after gathering.

You're not designing the study, Lief. Get used to it.

[brownjenkins]

My wife is divorced. She dated her first husband regularly throughout high school then, after her first year in college, they broke up because they were moving apart a bit.

She's a very independent, self-motivated individual who always has ten things going on at once and kind of expects some of the same independence from others. Her boyfriend by comparision, who is a good guy all told, seems to like a bit more of the "mothering kind" when it comes to a mate. A more classic husband-wife relationship from what I can tell.

That summer, after they broke up, I met her via a children's theatre we were both part of, and we dated for a few months. I was 25 at the time, and she was 19. It was great for me, as that was in the middle of my heavy jamming days and being with someone a bit more straight-laced was exactly what I needed. That said, when summer was over and she went back to college, she let me know that her and her ex were thinking of getting back together. I wasn't too happy, but I understood and, being far from the settling down stage myself, it made sense.

Later that fall she ended up getting pregnant via her ex. Unintentionally she says, because she was on the pill at the time, but was also taking antibiotics for an illness she had, and I guess that they can sometimes counteract the pill. Her ex, who wasn't her ex anymore, decided they had to get married (his family is very Catholic). So they did.

Things went well at first, but after the child was a year and a half old, things went downhill fast. He ended up hooking up with a woman from his workplace (who would become his future wife, and was much more in the classic husband-wife mindset I mentioned earlier, though not half as pretty ). They decided to get divorced and, as those things go, it went pretty amicably. He payed child support, but she only asked for the real cost of the support (sixty dollars a week, as opposed to the hundreds of dollars a week many mothers try to get), as she planned to continue teaching.

Around this time she paid me a visit for the first time in the three years since we had last seen. The rest is history. We moved in together, had another kid, bought a house together, had another kid, finally got around to getting married, etc. Her ex also got married and had a few kids, but he also continued to take his child a few times each week, and there have never been any issues at all over that.

Ten years later and I'd say everything has worked out for the best. Two happy healthy families who get along with one another and are probably happier about themselves than they could ever had been if not for the divorce.

So, if nothing else, to me that shows that staying together can be worse than getting divorced, and getting divorced is not always a bad thing and can, in fact, lead to an even better future.

Personally, the idea that most kids between the age of 16 and 25 can really state with any kind of sincerity that they can commit "the rest of their life" to another person is crazy. Sure, it works sometimes, but I'd chaulk it more up to luck than perseverance. And any comparisions with "the good old days when everyone stayed together" has to take into account the fact that women had little to no choice in the matter due to the moral restrictions of the time, a moral atmosphere which also saw mistresses for husbands as perfectly acceptable, and almost expected, in many societies.

This doesn't mean I don't think people should try to stay together, but divorce is a viable option, and is often the right choice to make. Divorce, like marriage, takes effort to make it work, but if you care about your children and care enough about your former mate, as you should care about any fellow human being, it's an effort that is worth making.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

My mother is the third wife of my father. I know nothing of his earlier marriages, except that he has a son and a daughter from them, and am unlikely to find out now, since he is now deceased.

One of the students here is the son of a divorced family; his mother works in the library at the college, and his father has visited a couple of times. The father left when the son was seven, and the son still resents him for it. Since the divorce, the son has never gone back to see his father. I don't think the divorce was good for this family.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

No, they're not, in the article you posted. It may be convenient to your argument to lump together people who never commit, people who are divorced, people who are widowed, and people who have children either within or outside of committed relationships other than marriage, but it isn't part of THIS topic.

The article I quoted was talking about relationship break-down in society being a key cause for large social problems. Divorce was listed as one of those forms of relationship break-down, and hence a cause of single parenting, poverty and anti-social behavior. Thus, it is on-topic.

The article says this:

Originally Posted by BBC News

Divorce remains historically high at about 160,000 a year which means that we are getting close to being able to say that for every three marriages there are two divorces.

Then it lists a variety of other forms of relationship break-down, including statistics showing how an increase has been occurring in Britain. Then, after presenting these facts, it says:

The consequence is that more children end up living with just one parent or, as is the case in 10% of families, with a step-parent.

Then, it goes on to describe in more detail how these problems impact society. It's all clearly related to divorce, as one of several forms of relationship break-down. The fact that the article covers some things that aren't related to this topic specifically (though relationship break-down outside of wedlock is a very similar issue), doesn't make my evidence regarding divorce unrelated to the topic. The article says that divorce is a factor in causing these problems. That point is clearly on-topic, as the topic is currently written.

According to the article itself, divorce is one of the forms of relationship break-down that causes these social problems.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I know, because I posted this topic, and that's how I designed it.

You didn't "design it". You left the conversation entirely open when you said:

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Anyone know any divorced people?

Opinions as to whether the divorce(s) was a good or bad thing, for the partners, for the family in general?

The statement, "anyone know any divorced people?" does not say, "discuss ONLY your personal experiences with divorced people here." Your second sentence opens the discussion to our opinions, but it doesn't say, "give only your opinions, and NOT the evidence on which your opinions are based!"

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

No, the topic is divorce. Since divorce is not equivilent to "anything that's not marriage" those things are not germane.

I did not say, "anything that's not marriage." Divorce is a form of relationship break-down, it was considered to be a serious factor in social problems in the article I posted, and the article's description of the problems that have resulted is highly on-topic. The topic is presently quite open, the way it is presented in your first post, and I won't submit to your current attempt to discriminate against my posts and not the evidence others have posted here, upon which they base their opinions. What I posted is in complete accord with the topic and purpose of this thread as it is currently written.

You'll have to modify your initial post to specifically say that people aren't allowed to present evidence here supporting their beliefs, if you want to make my article out-of-line.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

The "severe problem". at this point, is that this is a new study. It is not a literature review. We are polling for new data, which we will interpret after gathering.

You're not designing the study, Lief. Get used to it.

Would you please modify your first post, then, to say this? You never called this a "new study" there, or anything like it. In your first post, you just said that the thread's intent was to provide a topic for talking about our opinions about divorce. It is natural, when giving our opinions, to say why we believe what we do. So evidence supporting opinions is naturally going to be found.

It would help if, for the sake of clarification, you would include in your first post a statement that you want opinions only and no evidence aside from opinion.

Though actually, personal experiences with witnessing divorce are forms of evidence too, so really you should be criticizing brownjenkins' post, in which he talks about why he thinks divorce is often fine, and you should be criticizing Gwaimir's post, and you should be criticizing Jonathan and Lotess's posts. All of them explained some of the reasons why they believe what they do.

Please clarify in your first post of this thread that you want only certain forms of evidence, and not others, and what kind of a discussion you want.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Anyone know any divorced people?

Opinions as to whether the divorce(s) was a good or bad thing, for the partners, for the family in general?

This is the original post.

Sentence one: Subject 'anyone' verb 'know' object 'divorced people'

Sentence two: Subject and verb implied "Do you have" object "opinions as to whether" the divorce(referring to the divorce of the people you know, in the first sentence) "was a good or bad thing" etc.

If I had said, "What is the current status of sociologists on the impact of divorce?" Or "Could someone bring evidence that divorce is anti-Biblical?" or "Just wanted to hear ramblings and rantings on the subject of divorce." I would be hastening back to correct that. Since I was clear, as evinced by the fact that you are the only one in the thread who is having difficulty sticking to personal experience, I won't be correcting it.

[hectorberlioz]

Why don't we just leave the aesthetics of grammar and posting and bickering for something else?

And if ANYONE continues this this kind of hissy fit, I will personally humiliate them in the Teacup. Just to spite.

How's that?

Now...let's get on with divorce!

[brownjenkins]

I think the idea of sticking to first or secondhand experiences for a change is a good one. Lord knows we get more than enough of statistics and studies thrown around.

Plus, divorce doesn't lend itself well to statistics, ask anyone a few weeks after they did it if they thought it was a good thing and they will probably say no, ask them five years later and they might say it was the best thing they ever did.

[Lief Erikson]

Sisterandcousinandaunt, your first post is very open and your rejection of evidence that doesn't come from personal experience is not in it at all. What you say in the first post sets the guidelines for the rest of the discussion. Until you change the rules you wrote in those guidelines, I'm not breaking any rules in posting evidence aside from personal experience.


Tessar, do you think that it is clear from this post

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Anyone know any divorced people?

Opinions as to whether the divorce(s) was a good or bad thing, for the partners, for the family in general?

that evidence outside of personal experience is forbidden in this thread?



EDIT: I'm leaving this thread . Jonathan made a good point that another one on this topic is already open.

[Lief Erikson]

This decline in traditional moral values is causing a lot of pain, according to available evidence taken from Britain.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6545921.stm
Divorce and sexual partnerships outside of wedlock are contributing to "family breakdown and social isolation," for many people.

Here are key quotes. Bolds are added.

Originally Posted by BBC News

The latest annual statistical review of British society finds that a quarter of children now live with just one parent - the vast majority are single mothers.

Originally Posted by BBC News

Last Updated: Wednesday, 11 April 2007, 16:30 GMT 17:30 UK

E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Big change to 'Janet and John' story
By Mark Easton
BBC home editor

Once upon time it was Janet and John - mum and dad, married with a couple of kids. Today the story is very different.


The report highlights a rise in relationship breakdowns

The latest annual statistical review of British society finds that a quarter of children now live with just one parent - the vast majority are single mothers.

Few young people set out in life with the aim of bringing up a family on their own and yet, increasingly, that is how it ends up.

The number of lone mums bringing up three or more children has trebled since the 1970s.

How has this come about?

The implication of the statistics is that Britain is going through an epidemic of relationship breakdown.

Marriage low

We now have the lowest number of marriages since records began.

In 1972 there were 480,000. The latest annual figure is 284,000.

We're now seeing the consequences of this inconstancy in relationships.

Originally Posted by BBC News

Youngsters are tending to flee the nest later - around six out of 10 men are still living with their parents when they are 24 - partly a consequence of staying in education longer but also because of the difficulty in finding somewhere they can afford to live.

When they do finally set off on their own, larger numbers of young people end up living alone.


Fears about anti-social behaviour concern many

Back in 1971 three million people were on their own. Today it is seven million - 29% of all households have just one person in them.

The numbers of men and women aged 25 to 44 who live alone has doubled in the past 20 years.

Among middle-aged men there has also been a doubling, one in six males in that age-group live by themselves, in part a consequence of relationship breakdown.

The increase among women - who tend to look after the children - is much less steep. They are usually the ones who look after the children.

The consequence is communities with higher levels of isolation and lower levels of trust.

Back in 1958, 60% of people thought most people were trustworthy.

Today it is 29% and still going down - a sign that the glue which holds our society together is weakening.

The loss of what is called "social capital" may explain an almost five-fold increase in complaints about neighbours in the past 20 years.

Arguments over noise are often put down to 'selfish attitudes' or 'incompatible lifestyles with neighbours', further evidence of atomisation.

Fears about crime and anti-social behaviour are another indicator.

BBC's article, and this surprises me as I've always found BBC to lean toward the left, connects this weakening of the "glue which holds society together," with lack of trust stemming in part from the decrease in marriages in proportion to relationships outside of wedlock, and the high divorce rate, both of which contribute, according to this article, to poverty, social isolation, the collapse of family structure, inter-neighborhood distrust and single parenting. The summarization of this grim look at the social results of divorce and sex outside of marriage is found in the claim that this is, "a sign that the glue which holds our society together is weakening."

That is a very heavy statement. These events that BBC puts together also fit together very logically.

Partnerships outside of wedlock do not include the vow that the couple will remain together, "till death do us part." As BBC notes, they are more likely to end in splits than marriages, though marriages nowadays too are collapsing. But the results of both are very negative, for a split will often lead to single parenting, which leads to poverty. Poverty will naturally lead to children leaving their parents later, and has commonly been seen as a contributor to crime. BBC remarks that relationship break-downs also can lead to anti-social behavior. This can cause more isolation, to more discord within communities because of people not getting along and not being used to one another.

The negative impact of this failure to commit to relationships that will endure has a very negative impact upon mothers, who are stuck often with raising the children, upon the fathers, who according to BBC are now more likely to live by themselves, and upon the children, who suffer through poverty and other problems.

It's a grim downward spiral that makes logical sense, and BBC has connected the dots.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I think the idea of sticking to first or secondhand experiences for a change is a good one. Lord knows we get more than enough of statistics and studies thrown around.

Plus, divorce doesn't lend itself well to statistics, ask anyone a few weeks after they did it if they thought it was a good thing and they will probably say no, ask them five years later and they might say it was the best thing they ever did.

I had hoped, by limiting the topic somewhat, we could enable everyone to contribute, without fear that their sources would be contested, etc.

It's a tough issue, but most people get some exposure to it.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I'm in favour of that tactic, sis. I get very tired of the re-runs of Statistics Wars that run around these days.