09-24-2002, 09:41 AM | #41 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Making him Fingon's son was just error on the part of CT. He was already the son of Oredreth in the drafts of S which CT used, but it was one of those things that silliped by in the confused state of said drafts, and he may have been confused with Finbor, a prospective son of Fingon that JRRT had written and then uncreated. Yhe change in the geneolgy from one draft to another was Oredreth being moved a generation, being change from being Finarfin's son to Angrod's son.
Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 09-24-2002 at 09:48 AM. |
09-26-2002, 12:24 AM | #42 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
p.s. - I've always loved the sound of Leeds - is it a nice place to live?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-26-2002 at 12:25 AM. |
|
09-26-2002, 11:21 AM | #43 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
|
|
09-26-2002, 07:59 PM | #44 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
Quote:
I have no doubt in my mind that by "Exile" Tolkien meant, when he wrote it, that Gildor was one of those who left Aman in defiance of the Valar before the First Age, or was descended from one and born in Middle-earth. But he can't have meant that anymore, or so I hold, it just doesn't work. Maybe Gildor was born of Inglor in Aman after the return of Finrod, and was cast out for some mysterious crime, or left when he was told not to, or was paying a debt or something, and so could be called an Exile. Some explanation ought to be devised.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
|
09-29-2002, 08:44 PM | #45 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
|
Thanks for the reference on the Histories of Middle-Earth series.
Two comments: First, as for Gildor, Quote:
Quote:
|
||
09-29-2002, 08:54 PM | #46 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
09-30-2002, 12:57 AM | #47 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
Quote:
For the Second Edition, Tolkien changed Gildor's words to "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finarphin".
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
|
09-30-2002, 01:31 AM | #48 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: minneapolis MN
Posts: 920
|
Well, if he is of the house of Finarfin wouldn't that make it easier to just add him in somewhere? I mean if Orodreth can gain Angrod as a father and Gil-Galad for a son, isn't there room somewhere else in the family to drop in Gildor? At least for the sake of speculation?
__________________
Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!! |
09-30-2002, 02:01 AM | #49 |
Enting
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 71
|
There is a problem with Gildor being a descendant of Finarfin. App. A notes that the lineage of the High-elven Kings in Middle-earth was represented only the sons of Earendil and their descendants after the fall of Gil-galad.
__________________
Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. |
09-30-2002, 02:50 AM | #50 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: minneapolis MN
Posts: 920
|
Quote:
__________________
Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!! |
|
09-30-2002, 02:58 PM | #51 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
|
|
09-30-2002, 03:27 PM | #52 | |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Quote:
|
|
09-30-2002, 08:42 PM | #53 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
|
I'll have to look back in The Silmarillion and check out the references given here, but FWIW my impression now is that Ingwe was High King of all the Elves because of his physical closeness to and love of the Valar. If so, I wonder has it ever been brought up anywhere that perhaps the Noldor set up a High King in Middle-Earth as part of their defiance of the Valar: "over there is Ingwe (one of the Sons of Feanor would probably at this point call him a 'vassal of the Valar' ) but we're doing just fine here with our own High King, so there. Nya-nya-ny-nya-nya"
Oh, it's been a long Monday. |
10-01-2002, 08:46 AM | #54 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
The heirship rules of the Noldorin roylaty are nowhere expressed, but the descent (with Gil-Galad being Oredreth's Son) Fingolfin to Fingon to Turgon to Gil-Galad, and then not to Elrond is consistant with with a rule of male descent only. Galadriel and Celebrindal excluded for being female, Earendil and Elrond for being descended only through Celebrindal.
If Gildor is descended from Finrod (in Aman) but through female descent only, this would explain his lack of claim to the Noldorin Kingship in ME. Another possiblity, consistant with Gildor being a EXILE, and with Finrod having no children in ME, is that his family connection is not blood descent. Perhaps he was orphaned and Finrod made him his foster son. This might have made him one of the family "Inglorion of the House of Finarfin" but not given him any claim to the Kingship. Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 10-01-2002 at 02:36 PM. |
10-01-2002, 06:43 PM | #55 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Good points, Lady of I and Lefty.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-02-2002, 09:30 PM | #56 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
|
Oh, mine was a little off the wall -- it had been a long day They probably loved Ingwe, and that wouldn't change, as the Vanyar hadn't interacted with the rebelling Noldor at all, had they? If they were to be bitter at any Elf in Aman, it would have been Finarfin, had they known he had been made king of the remaining Noldor there. But they didn't know that.
The question was raised earlier, who would be king as the various High Kings among the Exiles came out of Mandos' halls. Likely Finarfin would remain king, even when the exiles returned, as he had repented. But who would have been let out? Wasn't that part of the punishment? Feanor I would count as a king, even if not technically on the list, because of Fingolfin's words to him in Valmar, and also because of the power of his works (namely, in creating the Silmarils) and his power of leadership, but after his death he was locked in until the end. There is Finrod walking with his father over there afterwards, but he was a special case, being the first Elf (I think, certainly the first Noldo) to meet Men, and having given his life in Middle-Earth to save Beren. What were the rules of leaving Mandos' halls if you were an Exile? |
10-02-2002, 09:36 PM | #57 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: minneapolis MN
Posts: 920
|
Quote:
__________________
Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!! |
|
10-03-2002, 12:15 AM | #58 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
Ahh, Tar-Elenion has struck right at the heart.
Quote:
I wonder, ... perhaps he was related by marriage ... Angrod (son of Finarphin) married an obscure Ñoldorin woman by the name of Eldalótë (or in Sindarin Edhellos). Perhaps Eldalóte had a close relative named Ilauro, or something that might be rendered into "Inglor" in the tongue of Beleriand.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
|
10-18-2002, 05:54 PM | #59 |
Sapling
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 13
|
where does this different genealogy of Gil-Galad come from?
It really isn't as good and doesn't make sense. If when Finrod died, why did Orodreth (arothir) take the throne, when Aegnor and Angrod were around. (where they dead yet) It doesn't fit in with much of the Sil. (yes I know its different) but I just don't like it. |
10-18-2002, 06:02 PM | #60 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The Silmarillion Ch 9: Of the Flight of the Noldor | Diamond of Long Cleeve | The Silmarillion Project | 19 | 10-19-2018 08:10 AM |
Why did the Early Kings of Gondor live longer than the Kings of Arnor? | Valandil | Middle Earth | 8 | 05-24-2004 07:50 AM |
Chapter 15, "Of the Noldor in Beleriand." | Attalus | The Silmarillion Project | 41 | 11-08-2003 03:34 PM |
The Kings | zavron | RPG Forum | 42 | 01-11-2003 06:12 AM |
Power of the Balrogs and Elven Kings | Capuken | The Silmarillion | 39 | 10-17-2001 03:55 AM |