06-19-2008, 06:45 PM | #41 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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A woman committing abortion (especially in cases of rape, where it's not the woman's fault that she's pregnant at all) is like a woman who is put in jail for a crime she didn't commit, and shoots an innocent guard in order to escape, rather than serving the time. The other reason why your analogies fall short is summed up in two words: Parental responsibility. Whereas individual families don't each have a responsibility to give up every dime they have for starving people in Africa, everyone has a responsibility to look after their own children. That's parenthood. You do it through hard times and good. You don't kill the kids in hard times. Quote:
It's true that the woman, by willingly having sex with the knowledge that a child could result, bears some responsibility. That's called parenthood. Some people here have expressed the belief that parental responsibility begins at conception rather than at birth. This does not mean they want women to suffer or care nothing for their suffering. It just means that they don't see that suffering as a valid justification for murder. Quote:
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As for my relatives, I have no idea what they have to do with the discussion .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-19-2008 at 07:04 PM. |
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06-19-2008, 06:54 PM | #42 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Because that doesn't work. Both the mother and the child need compassion. Quote:
I hear what you're saying about the governments role. I just think you won't get anywhere with it. Clearly if someone is leaning pro-choice on the issue, they're doing it because they feel very strongly that it's unconstitutional, and/or, in some cases, have a strong emotional attachment to the issue because they feel victimized as woman and are expressing they're concerns on one of the most dramatic fronts in the battle for Womans Rights. I know a few feminists who are like this, sadly. So much so that it's hard to make them see any validity in the Pro-life argument at all. Both of these groups will and are reacting very aggressively to the legal approach to solving this problem. They're so sure that it's unconstitutional, which I believe it is, that they'll never give in. Which is why I firmly believe that if you want to stop abortions, you first need to give them the right to do it. From there you can have an honest discussion with them about the realities of abortion. If they think you want to take their rights from them they'll never listen to a word you say. Woman looking for an abortion need to be treated with love and respect. They need to know no one's out to get them, and their shouldn't be. If you want to stop abortions, you need to first help the mother. And you can't give them true loving care if you want something out of them. These woman need support, and the last thing that will help them make the best choice for them is to walk into a support center full of woman trying to convince her to keep the baby. Much less trying to take away her right to abort in the first place. That's how I feel anyway. Now I'll stop blabbing!
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Every blade in the field, Every leaf in the forest, Lays down its life in its season, As beautifully as it was taken up. Thoreau. Last edited by D.Sullivan : 06-19-2008 at 07:27 PM. |
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06-19-2008, 06:58 PM | #43 |
Elf Lord
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Good point.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-19-2008, 07:28 PM | #44 |
Elven Warrior
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Every blade in the field, Every leaf in the forest, Lays down its life in its season, As beautifully as it was taken up. Thoreau. |
06-19-2008, 07:32 PM | #45 | ||
The Ñoldóran
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian Last edited by Curufin : 06-19-2008 at 07:34 PM. |
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06-19-2008, 07:49 PM | #46 | ||||
Elven Maiden
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I hope I don't sound too cold here.. I'm just being realistic. And personally (and I know it's not everyone so I should try to understand others too) but I don't have a very strong will to live at all, so I don't walk around going thanks for not aborting me. Maybe I am cold.
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06-19-2008, 07:54 PM | #47 | |
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06-19-2008, 08:52 PM | #48 | |
Elven Warrior
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If I have insulted you in some way, I apologize.
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Every blade in the field, Every leaf in the forest, Lays down its life in its season, As beautifully as it was taken up. Thoreau. |
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06-19-2008, 09:31 PM | #49 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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This isn't just the mother making a decision about the mother. It's two people, two bodies, united into one flesh. So abortion is unthinkable. Quote:
If an older kid with his younger brother go to camp and the older kid doesn't want to look after his younger brother, but would rather hang out constantly with kids his own age, the fact that he didn't want the responsibility and didn't ask for it doesn't mean it isn't his. Nobody wants responsibility. Almost all responsibility takes from our free time, requires energy, makes us do things we don't want to do or look after things we couldn't care less about. We never want responsibility. If us initially desiring the responsibility is required for responsibility to exist, responsibility ceases to have meaning and all that counts is desire. That is pure selfishness. Katya, thanks for the explanations in your most recent posts. I think they help me a lot to better understand where you're coming from. It doesn't change my mind in anything I said, but I think it really does help me to better see what you mean. Quote:
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Besides, we should be concerned about the baby's safety as well as the mother's.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-19-2008 at 09:50 PM. |
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06-19-2008, 09:46 PM | #50 | ||
Elf Lord
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We need to show love for the women without showing acceptance of criminal acts. Showing acceptance of the legality of those acts would strengthen their moral legitimacy in the eyes of society and make more people callous toward the fate of the unborn. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-19-2008, 09:51 PM | #51 | |||
Elven Maiden
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06-19-2008, 10:09 PM | #52 | |
Elf Lord
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The mother.
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Gosh, it's hard to argue if you think that. Except to say that such a viewpoint is so full of death and hopelessness that it's not worth having. We live in the world of the living. Let's act like it .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-19-2008, 10:20 PM | #53 | |
Elven Maiden
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I think morals are relative to an extent but I still have my own set (some of it might even be universal!) and it definitely doesn't involve killing people or cruelty or any sort. I just don't think "murder" is wrong just because it's murder- I think it's wrong because it causes suffering. |
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06-19-2008, 10:26 PM | #54 | |||
Elf Lord
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Just to be clear . . . if I was a care worker and I put sleeping pills in the food of a community of orphans, and then I gave them all lethal injections so they died in their sleep, you wouldn't find this wrong?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-19-2008 at 10:28 PM. |
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06-19-2008, 10:55 PM | #55 | ||
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So what about fetuses right? Well, I don't think it's good to kill them either but it's less bad. Sounds like a really weak defense, I know, but it's how I feel. It's not an easy choice anyway. But I have to love myself first, you said so yourself (though I'm sure this isn't what you meant exactly), and I have to choose myself and the father and everyone else who it would affect, over the fetus who's not gonna suffer much at all. I thought I would have a child, and I would want the very very best for it too. That was my first thought. I couldn't give it anything less because I was already in love. I know this post was very stream of consciousness and I'm sorry, I'm just about ready for bed. |
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06-19-2008, 10:56 PM | #56 |
The Ñoldóran
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Lief,
In a perfect world, I would agree with you that we should not allow abortion. Although I am adamantly and completely pro-choice, I see abortion as a horrible thing, and the fewer that take place the better. I do not think that anyone on the pro-choice side would disagree with me in this. But the truth is - it simply isn't as easy or as simple or as black and white as the anti-choice side makes it. First, the most important thing we can do to stop abortion is agressive sex education. And I don't mean abstinence-only sex education which is dishonest and doesn't work. I'm talking about sex-education that teaches kids the safest way to have sex and how to use condoms and other forms of birth control. A sex-education program that realizes that while it is ideal that pre-teens and teens wait to have sex until they are older and more emotionally ready for it, it is also unrealistsic to deny that this sex will occur. When teenagers are taught how to prevent pregnancy effectively, instead of simply being told that sex is evil while at the same time not being taught how to protect themselves, then the numbers of abortions will decrease. Secondly, making abortion illegal is not going to stop it. It's simply going to save the lives of women who would have these abortions anyway. The truth is that if a woman doesn't want to have a child, she's not going to have that child, whether its legal or not. These woman are going to have abortions in back alleys, using rusty coat-hangers and unsterile equipment, and many thousands are going to die of infections that could have been prevented. If you want stories or pictures of these, just ask. I've done tons of research on this topic, and believe me, these stories and pictures are just as disgusting as your aborted fetus pictures. If you are truly pro-life what do you make of this? Do you think that these women deserve to die for their sins, that this is some sort of poetic justice for the 'baby-killers'? Or do they deserve compassion and the ability to have this difficult (both physically and emotionally) procedure done in such a way that there will only be one life (if you consider it that) lost instead of two? Think about it for a while. Women who have abortions are not monstrous 'baby-killers.' They are women who have found themselves in difficult situations - rape, or an accidentally pregnancy that they don't feel they can handle. Maybe they're in school, maybe they'd be disowned by their parents, maybe the father left them when he found out about the pregnancy and they do not have the ability to raise that child. There are certainly as many reasons for having an abortion as there are women who have them. These women deserve compassion, not condemnation; love, not words of hatred and damnation. They deserve to have control over their bodies, and not to have all control over themselves and their most intimate bodily processes taken away from them. It is not the place of the state to tell any of us what to do with our bodies. My reproductive system is not the property of congress, or the pro-life lobby. If pro-lifers truly care about life, maybe they should stop bombing clinics, and start helping to educate children and teenagers on how to prevent these unwanted pregnancies to begin with. This would be a lot more helpful than the hateful and vitrolic words thrown at women who are already suffering one of the most difficult experiences of their lives.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
06-19-2008, 11:09 PM | #57 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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For any woman who has wanted to have a baby, and planned her fertility, and tried, it's enormously exciting to get a positive pregnancy test. It can be a long awaited step on the road to parenthood. But it is NOT, in itself, parenthood. Even a stillbirth isn't the same as "having a baby." If you're mentally well, you don't treat every onset of menses like a dead toddler. Because it's NOT. Quote:
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Lief, you'll never know anything important about having a baby. Biology prevents. Maybe that's why you want to insert yourself into this process.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-19-2008, 11:13 PM | #58 | |
Elven Warrior
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Every blade in the field, Every leaf in the forest, Lays down its life in its season, As beautifully as it was taken up. Thoreau. |
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06-19-2008, 11:40 PM | #59 | |
Kraken King
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This is a serious question and I expect a serious response in turn, there is no sarcasm of any capacity in this post (other than the inserted humor, which was irresistable), so please, all those who may answer: no sarcastic bs or brush offs. Thank you.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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06-20-2008, 01:02 AM | #60 | |||
Elf Lord
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Wrong because it hurts the killer . . . I suppose if you're a sociopath and don't care then it's not wrong at all, then . . . this is just bizarre to me. Way to bizarre for me to grapple with. I can't respond. Maybe someone else here can. R*an, are you hovering out there? Help? Quote:
I don't know how to reply to your thought processes, I'm afraid. They're so far different from mine that while I think I can understand your logic, I can't really deal with it. Maybe I'll think of some way to relate later. Why do you think suffering is wrong, by the way?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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