10-25-2002, 02:41 AM | #41 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Those magical things which you mentioned as things of the powers of men, Afro elf, are all things. They are magical items, but that doesn't show magic within the natural abilities of men. Beorn's being a magician could be because of an ancestor having a relationship with a Maiar.
Simply because Gandalf says that he knew the spells of elves, men and orcs also doesn't necessarily show anything. There are never any orcs shown with magical powers, or men, besides Beorn. Gandalf knows these things because he is a wizard, and the reason that the powers work the way they do is because they are each from a different species. The magic is a part of the species, in a way, and because of his own immortality, Gandalf has access to them. Well, this is one way of arguing that, anyway. I'm actually not sure, Afro elf, whether I believe your view or this one more . |
10-25-2002, 08:08 AM | #42 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
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Good one, Afro-Elf! That's almost verbatim. Thanks! The actual quote was in LoTR, during the Council of Elrond when Gandalf was explaining why he didn't seek help from Radagast when that wizard told him about the Nazgul being abroad, but instead went to Saruman:
Quote:
Under those criteria, Beorn certainly wasn’t magical (as his transformation wasn't for "immediacy: speed, reduction of labour, and reduction also to a minimum (or vanishing point) of the gap betweeen the idea or desire and the result or effect."). And likely he was a man, at least in the overall picture though he was certainly reminiscent of some sort of elemental force in The Hobbit. Since he did mention that he knew Radagast, had met him a few times before, and actually seemed to like him, I would suggest it was that “master of shapes” who either taught him or encouraged Beorn’s “inner bear” to come forth. And maybe in Beorn's love of animals but unsociability towards the more humanoid peoples of M-E, we see a possible explanation of why Radagast may have failed? |
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10-25-2002, 02:59 PM | #43 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
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Tolkien says in one of his letters that 'Beorn was a man, though a bit of a magician', and that's enough for me.
Could he have learned skin-changing from Radagast? I doubt it. Radagast was a Maia, so his ability to take on a shape comes from his order, as something in his nature, and is not a skill to teach.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
10-27-2002, 03:00 PM | #44 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 160
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I think Beorn was born with the ability to turn into a bear. And Beren was Not able to turn into a wolf, but his friends were killed by one. Beorn comes from a dannish word 'bjorn' which means bear. Beorn probably was able to turn into a bear when he was quite young. He only eats honey and stuff like that.
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01-14-2003, 05:59 AM | #45 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oxon, UK
Posts: 638
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Just re-read the chapter in Silmarillion: "Of Aule and Yavanna". This chapter concerns the creation of dwarves (by Aule) and ents (by Yavanna), the latter to protect the olvar (plants) of middle-earth.
Specifically, Yavanna "summoned many spirits from afar" to protect both olvar and kelvar (animals) alike. It strikes me that Beorn's powers are very similar to those one might ascribe to an "animal's ent", i.e. if you were to create a spirit which carries out the same role as ents but for animals, it would be much like Beorn. So maybe that's where Beorn's powers come from. Just a thought cheers d. |
01-26-2003, 05:44 PM | #46 |
Sapling
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lakeville, MA (I call it the shire)
Posts: 11
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On the subject of Beorn, here's a really corny Beorn joke
Q: Why did Beorn always make sure to wear a belt? A: Because he didn't want people to see his bear ass! |
04-19-2003, 01:51 PM | #47 | |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
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Quote:
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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04-19-2003, 02:05 PM | #48 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
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Those magical things which you mentioned as things of the powers of men, Afro elf, are all things. They are magical items, but that doesn't show magic within the natural abilities of men
The Hillmen of Rhaudur (sp) became a sorcerous people and the above post. Tolkien states that there is no difference in the "source" of the power but the intent of the power. So men could use magic.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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