Snowstorm at the Redhorn Pass

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by CAB

Let me suggest this. Maybe the Balrog was trying to build up a power base. It had to have known that Sauron’s power was growing. If it was going to stay free of Sauron and hold on to Moria it needed to get stronger in a military and intelligence type sense. It could do this by making allies in the area (Spirit of Caradhras, Watcher) and subjugating others (Wargs, Orcs, maybe some birds for information gathering purposes, the Spirit of Caradhras and the Watcher may also have been subjects rather than allies). I’m not saying that the Balrog was preparing to take over Middle Earth but rather was trying to hold on to it’s freedom and home.

I think if this was true, the Wargs could very easily be serving the Balrog. It was stated that there were wolves (probably Wargs) on Lorien’s boarders, probably very close to Moria. If the Balrog had control of the Redhorn Pass and Moria they had easy access to the east side of the mountains. Even though Gandalf refers to one as “Hound of Sauron” they may have recently switched allegiances to the Balrog during it's power grab. The Balrog is right next door while Sauron is hundreds of miles away. I don’t think these evil types are very loyal.

I’m not really sure what I think about the Balrog’s knowledge of the Ring. How would it know? Certainly Sauron and Saruman didn’t share their knowledge with it. On the other hand the company seems to be almost pushed into Moria. Why would an unknown bunch of travelers get this treatment?

To bad Gandolf didn't get a chance to interrogate the Balrog first. These theorys are great CAB.

[arvedui_last_king]

Quote posted by Olmer:

The fact is that we don't know how succesful was Gandalf in his pesuasion of common Men. But we know that Aragorn was "dancing to his pipe", also Theoden and Faramir. Only smart and experienced Denethor saw his "true colour" and treated him with distrust, apprehending Mithrandir's schemes to supplant him (which turned out not to be baseless) .
Also the wise, silver-tongued Rohan king's councellor did not let himself to be fooled by Gandalf, for what he earned his new name -Wormtongue, given , of course, by Gandalf.

Smart and experienced Denethor? I would describe him as proud and jealous. He took an oath to rule Gondor until the kings returned, bu when that looked like happening he decided he didn't want to lose his power.

Wormtoungue didn't let himself be fooled by Gandalf? Implying that everyone who followed and trusted Gandalf were fooled by him. Why do you think Gandalf is scheming for his own benefit? Wormtoungue, as is said in UT, administered subtle poisons to Theoden. He doesn't seem that nice.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You mean???

Theoden rush decision to leave Edoras full of women and children under protection of... Eowyn and send not only his whole army, but "every men and strong lad able to bear arms" in hurry to fight Saruman army, "the main strength (of which)...is many time as great as all that (they ) have" just because Gandalf, who was up to that point had been considered entirely untrustworthy by the people of Rohan, TOLD him so. For me it looks kind of very illogic, even stupid move of the weathered in the wars warrior.
Gandalf must have used some pretty wicked mind controll spells to make Theoden to come so fast to such kind of conclusion .
By the way, Gandalf knew of Saruman's war potentials, he had been there, and his advise to go to Isengard and fight against the whole army, was equal to send men to a manslaughter. Not to mention that his "advise" to leave behind utterly defenceless women and children, the very essence, the future of Rohan, knowing that behind "comes a very storm of Mordor"made me suspect that Gandalf's intentions toward Rohan was not entirely benign, they just had been used as pawns in his chess-game.

[Olmer]

Gordis, I agree with you on Nazgul's motivations on the Weathertop.
So, the lights and flames were just Gandalf's brags about his pyrotechnic skill, kind like his water-horses boasting.

the power and will of the Ring itself attracted Wargs, Watchers, Gollums, orcs and Barlogs much like it attracted the nazgul.

That right.I don't think that surviving Balrog was interested in any later Middle-earth's affairs. He clearly shows his neutrality through the whole history of events, but I also don't think that the passing of the Ring of Power in his vicinity would leave him unaffected. We had a discussion on ths subject. Here I'm just inserting my reply.

If it would not be for the Ring , he wouldn't give a damn about a few more wanderers in vast Moria tunnels.
The Ring was a device which was tuned to attract persons with power, it doesn't see the difference between Elf , Man or Beast. As it sense the power it starts to emit the "pull" according the power measure of the prospective possessor. And lo!, mighty Balrog - what a catch!.
I imagine the pull was enormous to make Balrog uncomfortable and seek the source of nagging symptoms.
He would definately get a possession of the ring ( killing in process the Fellowship), but then he would just try to bury it somewhere, preferably as far from the place of his dwelling as it could be possible.
This way the ring would be, probably, much safer hidden than in the depth of the ocean , or even in Valinor

Originally Posted by Gordis

The wolves weren't exactly wolves, but Wargs or Werewolves.
Note that their dead bodies disappeared.

Since Wargs were maiars, which had been under the service of Melkor and ,after his downfall, by the cruelty of Valar were stripped of their quaint earth-form into the wolfs shapes their intelligence can be pertained more to humans than animals (after all they understood the Black speech and Quenya ), how about the simplier explanation that they picked up the slain and wounded?

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

He took an oath to rule Gondor until the kings returned, bu when that looked like happening he decided he didn't want to lose his power.

The King-who?
The last King of Gondor was Earnur. The Dunedain's Council of Gondor refused Arvedui's claim for the crown, and he had more Isildur's blood that "the last of ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity". And they had been absolutely right in this decision, otherwise Gondor's future would be as bleak as Arnor's. But instead of shrinking and falling apart under the rule of Isildur's straight lineage descendants , the Kings of Gondor expanded and enpowered their realm.
How much of Isildur's blood was in the veins of Aragorn is a big question.I guess, enough to summon the Dead Army. He won the support of gondoreans by winning the battle, and not by argumenting his pretense to be the King by brandishing re-forged Narsil. But without help of elves and wizard he would be still wandering around Eriador and sleeping under trees.

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Theoden rush decision to leave Edoras full of women and children under protection of... Eowyn and send not only his whole army, but [B]"every men and strong lad able to bear arms

I may be wrong, but I am sure that the women and children were sent to Dunharrow.

Originally Posted by Olmer

By the way, Gandalf knew of Saruman's war potentials, he had been there, and his advise to go to Isengard and fight against the whole army, was equal to send men to a manslaughter.

He did indeed know Saruman's war potential: nothing. He had been to Isengard on the night of the Battle of the Hornburg, after Isengard was destroyed, unless Pippin is lying as well. He wouldn't have tried to besiege Isengard while it was defended by thousands of orcs with only twenty men.

Originally Posted by Olmer

they just had been used as pawns in his chess-game.

But if Gandalf was selfish and decieving, why didn't Tolkien anywhere write about his ulterior motives?

[Landroval]

Since Wargs were maiars

What makes you think so? In The hobbit, they are just reffered to as "evil wolves"; in the Quenta, HoME IV, Tolkien states that the name warg comes form Old Norse vargr - wolf; in a note to letter #297, they are reffered to as demonic wolves, but that is all - not to mention that they are ridden by orcs.

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Since Wargs were maiars,

I don't think we can be sure about that. It is not explicitly stated by Tolkien so that just an assumption (that I disagree with.)

Originally Posted by Olmer

And they had been absolutely right in this decision, otherwise Gondor's future would be as bleak as Arnor's.

No they were not. No it woludn't. You are forgetting the words of Malbeth the Seer: Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last of the Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dunedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men will pass, until the Dunedain arise and are united again.

Arvedui Last King!!!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But I have another theory: the power and will of the Ring itself attracted Wargs, Watchers, Gollums, orcs and Barlogs much like it attracted the nazgul. The Ring was actively calling to all the evil creatures around. Maybe the Spirit of Caradhras, whatever it was, also felt it.

I agree with you that the Ring called out to evil creatures but I also agree with Olmer. I the reason that the Balrog disturbed the Fellowships path was because he felt the presence of Gandalf a fellow Maia. As Olmer said I doubt the Balrog would be concerned with the affairs of ME, only his own survival.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

How much of Isildur's blood was in the veins of Aragorn is a big question.I guess, enough to summon the Dead Army. He won the support of Gondoreans by winning the battle, and not by argumenting his pretense to be the King by brandishing re-forged Narsil. But without help of elves and wizard he would be still wandering around Eriador and sleeping under trees

Aragorn probably had as much blood of Elendil in his veins as everyone of the Arnorean Dunedain and plenty of Gondoreans, Denethor included. But it is not the blood proportion that makes him the rightful King, it is the DIRECT PATRILINEAL DESCENT. No one in Gondor could claim this. Maybe there were some Castamir's descendants in Umbar that could claim direct descent from father to son from Anarion, but Thorongil took care of them himself, it seems...

Originally Posted by Landroval

What makes you think so? In The hobbit, they are just reffered to as "evil wolves"; in the Quenta, HoME IV, Tolkien states that the name warg comes form Old Norse vargr - wolf; in a note to letter #297, they are reffered to as demonic wolves, but that is all - not to mention that they are ridden by orcs.

I admit I don't really know the difference between wargs and werewolves. But there clearly is a difference, as Gandalf enumerating Sauron's servants to Frodo, says: wargs and werevolves. I believe wargs were animals - huge wolves associated with Orcs, while werevolves were evil spirits in wolf form.
Aragorn hears the howling and cries "Wargs" They are called alternatively "wargs" and "wolves" until after the fight, when their bodies disappear and Gandalf says: `It is as I feared. These were no ordinary wolves!'

So what were these spirits? Lesser maiar, corrupted Elvish fëar inhabiting wolf bodies, human fëar, something else?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Aragorn probably had as much blood of Elendil in his veins as everyone of the Arnorean Dunedain and plenty of Gondoreans, Denethor included. But it is not the blood proportion that makes him the rightful King, it is the DIRECT PATRILINEAL DESCENT. No one in Gondor could claim this. Maybe there were some Castamir's descendants in Umbar that could claim direct descent from father to son from Anarion, but Thorongil took care of them himself, it seems...

Remember Aragorn was also a descendent from Anarion, as Firiel married Arvedui.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Remember Aragorn was also a descendent from Anarion, as Firiel married Arvedui.

Yes but that doesn't count for much. The ancestry is accounted from father to son only - patrilineal law. It was the law of both Arnor and Gondor. Arvedui had no real grounds to claim the crown (no pun intended, o Arvedui )

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Arvedui had no real grounds to claim the crown

Well then, what grounds had Aragorn for the crown?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

Well then, what grounds had Aragorn for the crown?

Aragorn was a direct descendant of Elendil and Isildur - from father to son. As was Arvedui. But Gondor's throne belonged to Anarion and his descendants - also from father to son.

At the time of Arvedui, there were still direct descendants of Anarion in Gondor, Earnil was a direct descendant of Telumehtar Umbardacil, so he clearly had precedence over Arvedui.

At the time of Aragorn, no father to son descendants of Anarion could claim the throne, so Aragorn claimed the throne as a descendant of Elendil, the High King of both Arnor and Gondor.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes but that doesn't count for much. The ancestry is accounted from father to son only - patrilineal law. It was the law of both Arnor and Gondor. Arvedui had no real grounds to claim the crown (no pun intended, o Arvedui )

What about Numenor? There were ruling queens of Numenor before the shadow fell. why not in Gondor?

[CAB]

But the mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were taller and more terrible in those days, and were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Orome.

Kind of a late addition to this thread, but after reading this quote from the Silmarillion, it seems probable to me that the maker of the snowstorm on Caradhras may have been "posted" by Melkor at the Redhorn pass, far back in the First Age, to do to Orome's hunters exactly what it did to the company thousands and thousands of years later. Quite a loyal servant, don't you think?

[Gordis]

That is quite possible, CAB. We are returning to the "Evil Maia theory".

I have just reread the thread (isn't it your first one, CAB? ) - a good thread it is, there are few now that interesting *sigh*.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have just reread the thread (isn't it your first one, CAB? )

It is. I have also posted today in what appears to be your first thread. In it, I requested that you post your theory regarding the importance of the Palantiri to those who would seek the Ring. Maybe it will start some discussion.

[Gordis]

Ok, I will see to it, thanks, CAB.

[Olmer]

On another hand, after comparing texts in the "Hobbit" and in the "FotR" I came to conclusion that by all Tolkien's indications it was the stone giants who were making a small avalachie. A few sentences later after a description of the snowstorm Tolkien gives us a hint that this is not doing of Sauron or Saruman.
"There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have a little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron. Some have been in the world longer than he."(FotR)
I am pretty sure that he meant to include the stone giants in this story, but he has left for us a little enigma by withholding the identity of the hostile power, and at the same time giving an explicit clue.
Still, it is a question of their origin. Could be very well the servants of Melkor ( as CABsuggested), or quite independent entities.

[Jon S.]

Well before the movies came out, I thought it was most likely Saruman who caused the storm in an effort to prompt the Fellowship to take an overland path bringing them closer to Isenguard and the lands under Saruman's domain. That they would risk the mines - and also, thereby, the Ring - was just not something I thought Saruman was expecting.

To those of you who ruled out Saruman as the cause: on what grounds?

P.S. I can't believe how much of the LOTR dialog - book and movie - has made it into the general parlance in my home. We actually call each other to the dinner table with statements like, "Come to dinner - my wife Jackie will show you a royal welcome!," and, "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!: