Arwen at Helm's Deep....... - Page 3

Lalaith · 01-26-2003, 05:10 AM

I didn't think that Elrond looked angry. But Arwen looked sad.

Artanis · 01-26-2003, 05:56 AM

Elrond didn't look angry, he looked grieved. Because Arwen will not be sailing West.

I'm sure we will see flashbacks of Arwen having Narsil reforged in RotK.

Lalaith · 01-26-2003, 08:44 AM

Quote:

I'm sure we will see flashbacks of Arwen having Narsil reforged in RotK.

Is Aragorn already carrying Narsil in TTT?

Black Breathalizer · 01-26-2003, 08:56 AM

The way the film was edited, the audience is made to feel that Arwen is leaving for the Grey Havens. But we know she doesn't. In flashback we will probably learn that the Rivendell party was always setting off for Rohan and will arrive at the beginning of ROTK (no, she's not already there.)

My arguement was that Tolkien's Arwen was never given enough "print time" to give the reader a true understanding of her character. But after thinking about azalea's comments, I find myself agreeing with her that PJ's Arwen wouldn't lie to her father. The scene where Arwen says to Aragorn when he tries to give her back the Evenstar necklace, "It was a gift...keep it." makes it pretty clear that she's straightforward and handles herself with great dignity and class. She doesn't strike me as a liar either.

Dúnedain · 01-26-2003, 01:12 PM

I think we will probably learn more about that scene when Arwen and company are leaving Rivendell in the Extended Edition DVD. Kinda like in FotR when Frodo was seeing his companions look at him in the mirror of Galadriel, that actually happened in a scene that was deleted and then cleared up in the Extended Edition where they were waiting to get into Lothlorien while Aragorn was talking with Haldir.

Anyway, point being, there is more to that scene that we will all learn, whether it is in a flashback or in the Extended Edition DVD, because something funky is going on with Elrond's face

Lizra · 01-26-2003, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
[B]haha lizra, i think that females are the only ones who would understand the teary scene of arwen!

Yes...so true! Crying is a welcome, cleansing relief, and a blessing at times. Especially when in PMS! It's such a hassle in a family situation though, You can't run to your bedroom and sob in peace like Arwen did. Everybody freaks out "Mommy's crying!!!". Then dad has to immediately find out what's wrong, tracking you down and quizzing you in mid blub....causing further distress and more crying because it's all so illogical and you now feel stupid for causing a "scene"!

Artanis · 01-26-2003, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lalaith
Is Aragorn already carrying Narsil in TTT?

No he isn't. But I think Arwen had the sword reforged before she set out from Rivendell. She is taking the sword to him. The scene belongs in TTT if you are to follow a strict timescale, but it could have been postponed to RotK and shown in flashback.

Or there's a possibility that it will be included in the TTT extended version, as Dúnedain pointed out.

Of course all this is merely speculations on my part.

Artanis · 01-26-2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
but anyways.. i thought of the scene as something like arwen has always had the comfort of knowing that she will live forever, having that invincible feeling if you will, so to realise that she will become mortal (and as my dear friend, gwaimir pointed out in another thread) and since mortals don't know what becomes of them when they die, she suddenly realises that she doesn't have that comfort anymore, even if she knew that she would die, she didn't really know...

I have to comment on this. I think Arwen knew perfectly well all the time that she would become mortal if she were to marry Aragorn. That was not her problem, the love she felt was so strong she would gladly give up her immortality for him (even if she at that time perhaps did not fully understand what it meant). Her tears, I think, were due to the fact that her choice would cause great sorrow and grief for the other beloved persons in her life: Her father and her grandmother. And that her choice meant she would be separated from them as long as the world would last.

At least that is how I interpret that scene.

Lalaith · 01-26-2003, 03:44 PM

At first: I always wondered why elves have to give up their immortality to marry a man. Is it a heart thing or like a "law".

Second: I think the trailer scene, where Arwen says to Elrond: "You have the gift of foresight, tell me what you have seen", will be included on the Extended DVD

***Jonathan*** · 01-26-2003, 04:02 PM

There have only been three elvish-human marriages, Arwen and Aragorn, Luthien and Beren, and Idril and Tuor.
Arwen and Luthien gave up their immortality, but Idril didn't. So I guess there is no law which says that the elves must become mortal to marry mortal men. Otherwize, should Idril be considered a criminal?

Artanis · 01-26-2003, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lalaith
At first: I always wondered why elves have to give up their immortality to marry a man. Is it a heart thing or like a "law".

Hm - I'm tempted to answer this in terms of the book: It is not a 'law'. Arwen and her twin brothers were special, because they were Half-Elven. They were given a choice: whether to stay in Middle-Earth and share the gift of Men, or to sail into the West and be reckoned among the Elves. Arwen chose to stay because of her love to Aragorn.

Lalaith, you have read the 'Athrabeth' recently, haven't you? There you see clearly that love between Elf and Man in general does not change their fate regarding to death.

Now in the movie, Arwen doesn't seem to be Half-Elven. Actually I think her fate is a bit confusing. IIRC Elrond on one occasion says "I will not leave my daughter here to die!". It seems to be a sort of 'law' here, but the movie doesn't offer any explanation now, does it? You just have to accept it.

Dúnedain · 01-26-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Now in the movie, Arwen doesn't seem to be Half-Elven. Actually I think her fate is a bit confusing. IIRC Elrond on one occasion says "I will not leave my daughter here to die!". It seems to be a sort of 'law' here, but the movie doesn't offer any explanation now, does it? You just have to accept it.

Well, in Fellowship, Elrond is introduced as Elrond Half-Elven, if I remember correctly....

Artanis · 01-27-2003, 03:54 AM

Is he really? I don't recall that. But anyway, it's still confusing.

**Nurvingiel** · 01-27-2003, 04:02 AM

I don't think there's anything to those pictures. There was just three blurry pictures of a random, unidentifiable elf. And since when does Arwen have a distinctive sword?

*generally disgruntled about movie-Arwen*

Lalaith · 02-02-2003, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Lalaith, you have read the 'Athrabeth' recently, haven't you? There you see clearly that love between Elf and Man in general does not change their fate regarding to death.

Can't remember that name. In which book are the Athrabeth included?

Quote:

There have only been three elvish-human marriages, Arwen and Aragorn, Luthien and Beren, and Idril and Tuor.

Good point but what makes me think is another fact that was in LOTR. Tolkien writes, that Prince Imrahil has elven blood in his veins. And it is said that an ancestor of Prince Imrahil had a lady of the fellowship of Nimrodel as wife and they had children. Shouldn't that be considered as a elf/men relationship, too.

***Jonathan*** · 02-02-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lalaith
Good point but what makes me think is another fact that was in LOTR. Tolkien writes, that Prince Imrahil has elven blood in his veins. And it is said that an ancestor of Prince Imrahil had a lady of the fellowship of Nimrodel as wife and they had children. Shouldn't that be considered as a elf/men relationship, too.

From what I know, the elvish blood of Imrahil is just a legend. The people of Dol Amroth wanted to believe that they were closely related to the elves, but they didn't have any proof. The elven heritage was a tradition in Dol Amroth, and not necessarily a true story.

Artanis · 02-02-2003, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lalaith
Can't remember that name. In which book are the Athrabeth included?

The "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" is in HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring. Didn't Sister Golden Hair quote a large part of it for you in another thread? Or maybe my memory has failed me.

*does a quick check in the Sil forum."
Yes, I remembered right. It's in the "Turin and Nienor" thread.

Lalaith · 02-03-2003, 02:59 PM

Quote:

The "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" is in HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring. Didn't Sister Golden Hair quote a large part of it for you in another thread? Or maybe my memory has failed me. *does a quick check in the Sil forum."

Yeah, I remember I read that part, but I didn't read any of the History of Middle-earth books, except the Books of Lost Tales.
I think I will in future, but not by now as they won't be published in German and in English it is rather difficult.

Evenstar1400 · 02-03-2003, 06:12 PM

Hehe! i have some possible proof that arwen was a helms deep in the movie! in the hardcover version of The Lord of the Rings: The Making of the Movie Trilogy, on page 49, there is a picture in the lower right hand corner. It depicts pj, and some people from the crew looking at a sketch, some extras in costume, and two rows of blue chairs for the actors, in a place that looks like helms deep. on two of the chairs you can see the names of the characters eowyn and arwen. so its a possibility that arwen was in the scene.

**Nurvingiel** · 02-03-2003, 10:00 PM

Well Eowyn wasn't in that battle either, so ha!

Maybe each character had her own chair, and Eowyn and Arwen wanted to sit and watch them film that scene. That's a plausible explanation.

01-26-2003, 05:10 AM	#41
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	I didn't think that Elrond looked angry. But Arwen looked sad. __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

01-26-2003, 05:56 AM	#42
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Elrond didn't look angry, he looked grieved. Because Arwen will not be sailing West. I'm sure we will see flashbacks of Arwen having Narsil reforged in RotK. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-26-2003, 01:12 PM	#45
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	I think we will probably learn more about that scene when Arwen and company are leaving Rivendell in the Extended Edition DVD. Kinda like in FotR when Frodo was seeing his companions look at him in the mirror of Galadriel, that actually happened in a scene that was deleted and then cleared up in the Extended Edition where they were waiting to get into Lothlorien while Aragorn was talking with Haldir. Anyway, point being, there is more to that scene that we will all learn, whether it is in a flashback or in the Extended Edition DVD, because something funky is going on with Elrond's face __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

01-26-2003, 03:44 PM	#49
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	At first: I always wondered why elves have to give up their immortality to marry a man. Is it a heart thing or like a "law". Second: I think the trailer scene, where Arwen says to Elrond: "You have the gift of foresight, tell me what you have seen", will be included on the Extended DVD __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

01-26-2003, 04:02 PM	#50
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	There have only been three elvish-human marriages, Arwen and Aragorn, Luthien and Beren, and Idril and Tuor. Arwen and Luthien gave up their immortality, but Idril didn't. So I guess there is no law which says that the elves must become mortal to marry mortal men. Otherwize, should Idril be considered a criminal? __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻

01-26-2003, 08:56 AM	#44
Black Breathalizer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 828	The way the film was edited, the audience is made to feel that Arwen is leaving for the Grey Havens. But we know she doesn't. In flashback we will probably learn that the Rivendell party was always setting off for Rohan and will arrive at the beginning of ROTK (no, she's not already there.) My arguement was that Tolkien's Arwen was never given enough "print time" to give the reader a true understanding of her character. But after thinking about azalea's comments, I find myself agreeing with her that PJ's Arwen wouldn't lie to her father. The scene where Arwen says to Aragorn when he tries to give her back the Evenstar necklace, "It was a gift...keep it." makes it pretty clear that she's straightforward and handles herself with great dignity and class. She doesn't strike me as a liar either.

01-27-2003, 03:54 AM	#53
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Is he really? I don't recall that. But anyway, it's still confusing. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

02-03-2003, 06:12 PM	#59
Evenstar1400 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In the inner depths of my lair. Posts: 421	Hehe! i have some possible proof that arwen was a helms deep in the movie! in the hardcover version of The Lord of the Rings: The Making of the Movie Trilogy, on page 49, there is a picture in the lower right hand corner. It depicts pj, and some people from the crew looking at a sketch, some extras in costume, and two rows of blue chairs for the actors, in a place that looks like helms deep. on two of the chairs you can see the names of the characters eowyn and arwen. so its a possibility that arwen was in the scene. __________________ Treebeard: Hmm, you look like hobbits, smell like hobbits, feel like hobbits and sound like hobbits. You must be orcs!

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