06-14-2006, 02:35 PM | #41 |
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Yes I see. I have been making an assumption haven't I! I have been assuming that the nine kings who were offered rings were already greedy before they were offered the rings.
No. Before they had the rings, those nine kings were NOT necessarily more evil or more greedy than anyone else. Anyone who can have lots of everything at their disposal because they are a king though, runs the risk of becoming evil through a misuse of kingly power and the ability to be overly self indulgent because of their personal status as a king. This can happen to a king even if they don't have the evil power from a ring effecting them and pushing them along in a particular direction. I have been assuming that the nine kings were greedy. However they may not have been already greedy in a more outward or overt way. The rings may just have amplified in each of them the inherent problems that can come with a over use of too much power and began to work on them until they became evil. My thoughts ran along the idea that Gandalf, Galadriel and Aragorn, who were all GOOD people and who had a substaintial amount of personal power, undestood that the ring would be dreadfully wrong even to touch. Not one of them physically were willing to touch the one ring even for a moment because it would have an evil effect on the personal power within them and attempt to turn it to evil. Last edited by Zilbanne : 06-14-2006 at 03:40 PM. |
06-14-2006, 03:35 PM | #42 |
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that's what i was thinking.
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06-15-2006, 11:34 AM | #43 | |
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I'll also point out that Gollum threatens to eat Bilbo. |
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06-15-2006, 11:44 AM | #44 | |
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a) A difference between Gollum and Frodo and the Nine is that during the majority of Sauron's searching for the Ring, Gollum was safe, Sauron hadn't revealed himself and only 50 years before had really begun to actively search for the Ring--when it was found by Bilbo. b) the Nine are thousands of years old and have been under the effects of the rings for millenia. Gollum for less than half a thousand years. I'd say that for both Gollum and Bilbo, the unnatural stretching of their lives is the first sign of becoming a wraith. But even Gollum, unlike the Nine, had stopped wearing the ring much and had kept it hidden on his island, so its physical effects are not as powerful c) Frodo is being helped into wraithdom by a wound from a Morgul knife--with the tip inside him for 2 weeks and closing on his heart; a knife with spells on it specifically designed to create wraiths under the power of the Nine and Sauron. So I'd say that Gollum is on his way to becoming a wraith when he loses the Ring, Frodo is effected more by the Morgul knife than the Ring itself which he seldom wears (though often has about his person). |
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06-15-2006, 11:47 AM | #45 | |
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06-15-2006, 11:50 AM | #46 | |
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06-15-2006, 03:12 PM | #47 | ||||
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06-15-2006, 03:12 PM | #48 | |
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Rotten person would be inevitably drawn to evil, no need of magic ring. The whole idea of the Rings of power was to subjugate to his control those, who, otherwise, would NEVER serve Sauron. So, I think, they were the great men, noble,valiant and proud, who,at some point of their life, wanted to achieve something grand, noteworthy, which would not be easy to accomplish without a little trinket, offered by the well-wisher. And , enhanced by the power of the rings, they succeeded in doing the great deeds, not aware fact that such handy devise have a hidden side-effects. Imagine a magnitude of dread and hoplessness the greatest and smartest Lords of Numenor must felt upon realizing in what kind of inescapable trap they had been caught! |
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06-15-2006, 04:46 PM | #49 | |||||
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I agree with most points in the posts above.
As we know, the Rings give power "according to the measure of each possessor"(LOTR) and "lead the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith." (L # 212) . IMO, most Men and some Elves (like Galadriel, Feanor, or Celebrimbor) not being "evil" were vulnerable to the Rings, just because of their inherent lust for power. Quote:
Men were the most vulnerable to the Rings, and the most vulnerable of Men were the Numenoreans, especially those of the Royal Line, not because they were greedy or evil, but just because of their nature.: Quote:
Look at Gollum, already corrupted by the Ring, which he had for 500 years. Quote:
And here is Sam's dream of a garden: Quote:
Frodo initially was much like Smeagol or Sam, but, during the Quest, he became more vulnerable to the Ring's appeal. Saruman was right: Frodo, has "grown" and became "wise and cruel" Not really "cruel", of course, but, indeed, his mind became more Man-like, than Hobbit-like when he started to " train his will to the domination of others". I think it was a very important moment in Frodo's character development when he unconsciously used the Power of the Ring not just for invisibility, but for something the Ring was really made for. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 06-16-2006 at 03:15 PM. |
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06-16-2006, 01:22 AM | #50 | |
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Gordis, I like what you've found and discussed about Smeagol and Sam and Frodo, having a significantly different nature in comparision to the human kings, so that their individual character as wraiths wouldn't be the same as in powerful humans with royal position. The hobbits wanted mostly simply things, fish for smeagol, better gardens for Sam. Frodo wanted things ultimately to be peaceful, like in The Shire. He desired this peacefullness and wanted to get back to it even when having to fight the influence of the ring inside himself. Even in his power over Gollum though, Frodo attemted to use the ring, to get control so that eventually he save the essential peaceful life that he had known in The shire. Although that life because of the power of the ring could no longer fully be his ever again. In his will to dominate Gollum in order to achieve his, there was still some thought of The Shire and that kind of life there, inside him. At mount doom though even Frodo couldn't hold his own desires apart from the will of the ring. Without Gollum there, Frodo's choice may have been similar to Isildur's? |
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06-16-2006, 04:45 AM | #51 | |
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06-16-2006, 06:28 AM | #52 | |
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06-16-2006, 01:04 PM | #53 | ||
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06-16-2006, 01:53 PM | #54 | ||
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06-16-2006, 02:08 PM | #55 | |
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06-16-2006, 02:17 PM | #56 | ||
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06-16-2006, 03:45 PM | #57 | ||||
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There was a great change in Frodo during the Quest. Saruman was wise enough to notice it: Quote:
And Landroval, why are you sure that the future nazgul knew what sort of rings they were being given and, especially that it was Sauron who was giving it to them? He could have come in any fair guise and told anything about the rings... Last edited by Gordis : 06-16-2006 at 03:51 PM. |
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06-16-2006, 04:38 PM | #58 | |||||
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Whatever threats he uttered were simply meant to restore a balance of relations, necessary for the fulfillment of the quest; the fact that Frodo restrained himself to doing only that is a sing of superiority on the moral plane, but also of 'folly', on the rational plane. Gollum loved the ring a lot, he may also have loved Frodo, but to say that his will was dominated by Frodo is a huge leap from that. Quote:
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06-16-2006, 04:41 PM | #59 | |
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06-16-2006, 05:27 PM | #60 | |
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