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07-02-2006, 03:41 PM | #41 | |
Elven Warrior
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I guess I missed something somewhere, but why did whether or not Aragorn had complete knowledge of the barrow blade become such an issue? We don’t know that he looked at it prior to Weathertop, do we? He probably wouldn’t recognize it immediately after the Nazguls’ attack either. It was dark, the blade hadn’t actually hit the Witch King, and he had other things to do and think about.
I personally think Aragorn had to have some knowledge of the blades. Later, when he had time to look at them, he probably recognized them. If Denethor knew that they came from the North, then Aragorn probably did too. When he spoke of ‘bane of Mordor’ later, he may have just been trying to save time by not giving a long explanation. Again, he had other things to think about and do. Mordor was the center of evil during the Lord of the Rings, the Nazguls’ master lived there, so what he said was close enough to the whole truth, considering the situation. As far as the barrow blades being the only thing that can destroy the Nazgul, I don’t buy it. If this was true, the Nazgul would be all but unbeatable late in the Third Age. Gandalf also said that neither Aragorn, Gimli, or Legolas had a weapon that could hurt him. Wasn’t Aragorn carrying a blade that was almost certainly very similar to the one that “killed” Sauron? Maybe when he said this and that the Nazgul couldn’t be killed by arrows, Gandalf was referring to their abilities to be rebodied. I would guess that any being with a physical body could have that body harmed by normal physical means (stronger beings would be less affected than weaker ones, of course), mystical weapons just did it better. I agree with Gordis that the barrow blades were most likely made specifically to deal with the Witch King (but would probably affect the other Nazgul the same way). Quote:
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07-02-2006, 05:54 PM | #42 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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07-03-2006, 12:54 AM | #43 | |||||||||||||||||
Salt Miner
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I agree with you, Landroval, that the influence of the Nazgûl on Frodo was powerful on Weathertop, and their machinations may have overcome his resistance to putting on the Ring; but I also agree with Gordis: the Ring has influence over those who bear it. Quote:
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“Work of Westernesse” and “blade of the Downfallen West" both refer to the weapons of the Dúnedain, and the Dúnedain are what remain of the Númenóreans, but in permanent exile. I had never considered that the Númenóreans in their hey-day in Númenor had concocted such a weapon; but the text seems to indicate that it was devised in Arthedain or Cardolan for the wars against Angmar. (And Landroval, if you are suggesting they were developed in Cardolan, I tend to agree with you, even though I have no evidence for it other than that the blades were found in the tomb of the last prince of Cardolan, and the secret for making them seems to have died out with Cardolan.) Quote:
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I think the point of the “no other sword” text is that there was “no other sword” that was capable of dealing such a blow to the Nazgûl that it broke “the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.” Aragorn knew that “all blades perish” that hit a Nazgûl, and neither Merry’s nor Éowyn’s was an exception. Quote:
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By the way, weren’t we discussing how to get a Ring of Power from a bearer who declined to part with it gracefully? The tie-in is Frodo’s declining the Witch-king’s polite invitation to Mordor to discuss legal possession of his, whatchamacallit, dingus, right? Last edited by Alcuin : 07-03-2006 at 01:11 AM. |
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07-03-2006, 10:24 AM | #44 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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The problem is that I can only recall two instances (perhaps there are others?) of someone implying that a particular physical body couldn’t be destroyed by normal means: Gandalf speaking about himself and Gandalf speaking about the Nazgul. With Gandalf himself, I have to assume he was referring to himself only after his “upgrade”, since his actions (and especially his injury in The Hobbit) indicate that this couldn’t be true prior to this. I think anytime that Gandalf seemed to avoid opponents armed with only normal weapons after his upgrade can be explained other ways, so I’ll leave that question alone (though my personal opinion remains that he was at least somewhat vulnerable to them). I will also not press the fact that Saruman ran from the Ents, who seemed to be using only brute force. It would make sense that Saruman’s body was pretty much the same as Gandalf’s, pre-upgrade. But what about the Nazgul? Just to be clear Alcuin, I don’t doubt that the barrow blades were particularly effective against them (so I am not arguing against Gordis’s theory of what happened on Weathertop, a theory I like very much), I just don’t think they were the only things that could hurt them. They don’t act like beings who can only be killed by weapons that are accounted for and under guard. Why this quote? Quote:
Why did the Nazgul flee from the Elves in the Shire? They may have possessed (or have been assumed by the Nazgul to possess) some mystical weapons, but hardly barrow blades. Same thing with Glorfindel. Didn’t Gandalf seem to injure a Nazgul outside Minas Tirith without a barrow blade? Quote:
So, I again agree that the barrow blades were particularly effective against the Nazgul, but not that they were the only things capable of harming them. |
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07-03-2006, 12:19 PM | #45 | |
Elf Lord
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Nazgul can't influence Frodo. It is the Ring was affecting those, who came in connection with it. The Nazgul got enslaved by the Ring long ago and with no turnabout, while Frodo was still fighting against its influence. We do not know till what degree the Ring of Power was regarded by Nazgul as a weapon and treat, but they avoided to come close to it, trying to be cautious in treating Frodo. Because, as you just said if "were it not for the Ring, it is likely his enemies’ “commanding wish” would have had little or no effect upon him". More than that, if Frodo would comprehensibly use the power of the Ring and order to Nazgul, they wouldn't be able to harm Frodo or to take the ring by force. The incident on the Weathertop explained by Tolkien as a moment of Frodo's weakness. He just got scared and wanted to hide, to run away. If he would be more brave, he would turn Nazgul into his loyal followers. Of course, using the Ring for putting somebody (even Gollum) under your control would have irreversible effect on the wielder, binding him with the Ring even closer, but the fact is that Nazgul did not know at what extend Frodo has mastered the Ring and were aware that they won't be able to resist the orders of the Ringbearer. "The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'." Letter 246 |
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07-03-2006, 01:16 PM | #46 | |||||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by Landroval : 07-03-2006 at 01:21 PM. |
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07-03-2006, 01:31 PM | #47 | |||
Elven Warrior
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Sorry for double posting
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07-03-2006, 03:01 PM | #48 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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07-03-2006, 03:22 PM | #49 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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07-03-2006, 04:25 PM | #50 | ||
Elven Warrior
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07-03-2006, 05:05 PM | #51 | |
Elf Lord
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Come on in letter 246 your times is up! so- what did he write in letter 247? ... just some doodles and maybe a recipie for marrow soup??? |
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07-03-2006, 05:54 PM | #52 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Well, this tread has become so multi-themed that it is difficult to follow who believes what. Also I have difficulty to keep up with you, guys at the rate the new posts appear. So, I decided to address matters one by one stating only my opinion. Sorry if I repeat myself.
1. Was it the Ring who made Frodo desire to put it on, or the Nazgul? The various examples of Frodo, Gollum, Bilbo etc. being compelled to put the Ring on, when no nazgul were around, points that it was the Ring. The only textual evidence against it (the quote about 'commanding wish of his enemies") may be due to a. Frodo's misunderstanding of the situation (as I have argued earlier) or b. That in this particular case it were indeed the nazgul who sent their additional command to put on the Ring to him. Why? Because Frodo was halfway in the Wraith-World already, due to the Morgul wound. I strongly believe, that had he put the Ring on at the Ford, he would have become a wraith immediately. Wearing of the Ring ultimately leads to wraithing. Morgul wound leads to the same. Accumulated effect of the two would likely turn him into a wraith on the spot. Also, note that the "commanding wish" to STOP was pretty efficient. It was Asfaloth, urged by Glorfindel, who bore Frodo away. Otherwise he wouldn't have moved. That was because he was half-way into a wraith under their command. Without the Morgul wound, ( not without the Ring - here I disagree with Alcuin) I doubt the nazgul would be able to send him any commands. They couldn't command him before and they couldn't later. So the Ford case was exceptional. But IF at Weathertop the nazgul DIDN't command him to put on the Ring, they MIGHT have assumed that he put it on in order to USE IT AGAINST THEM (here I refer to the famous L # 246). 2. Nazgul invulnerability. I agree that this question is very ambiguous. It depends very much on our understanding of the nature of the nazgul bodies. And we don't have it. Tolkien was never clear on the point himself, and he changed his conception right in the middle of writing LOTR, failing to correct the few remaining vestiges of the previous ideas. I have discussed it at length in another thread, but I can't even remember which one now. ALSO, an unknown value in the equation are their Nazgul Rings. It looks like they wore them all through the Second Age and most of the Third. Sauron took them from the nazgul before the time of the LOTR. It makes sense that WITH the rings they were more invulnerable than without, does it not? So, here I admit that everything I say is pure conjecture. I believe that the nazgul COULD be wounded by ANY weapon.Here I agree with CAB. That's why Aragorn knows "that all blades perish that pierce this dreadful King." The question is HOW BADLY wounded? Piercing a heart that doesn't pump blood (and we don't know even if it does or not) is no big deal. It may be painful, but it will heal eventually. That is one possible explanation (the nazgul bodies being so inhuman functionally that piercing them is no big deal). At Minas Tirith the Witch-King came forward, wearing no protection on his head or face, save the crown. Why was he "heeding no dart?" Thee were archers aplenty on the walls. The same at Fornost. He came forward all alone, when all his army was dead or scattered. This time, he wore a black mask, though, probably it was a metal mask, like in the helm of Turin. Note that to our knowledge the Witch-King was the FIRST nazgul ever killed (over 4500 years or something). And they must have been in tight places and bloody combats. Last Alliance, Fornost, siege of Minas Ithil - there must have been a lot more. If they had ordinary physical (though invisible) bodies, and no magic protection at all, someone somewhere would be killed over so long a period, IMHO. Now let us discuss this MAGIC protection, the mention of the spell being broken by Merry's sword. No, I didn't say that by the breaking of the spell the WK lost his magic. I only think that the breaking of the spell made him more vulnerable to ordinary weapons, like Eowyn's. Someone argued, that the Barrow-blade brought him into the physical plane again. May be, may be not. There could be a wealth of conflicting theories here. I will tell you mine: I think that had Eowyn sliced at the Witch-king's neck BEFORE Marry hit him, the Witch-King wouldn't be killed. He would have felt pain in his neck, but that is all. Because Eowyn's sword would have shattered before actually beheading him, perhaps just drawing some blood and then falling into useless fragments. After all, what is the point of shattering the blade AFTER they are used on the Nazgul? I think the idea was to make them shatter at the first contact with the nazgul blood (or whatever they had inside), making the blades useless BEFORE any actual damage could be done. Same with arrows. Merry's sword broke the spell, and Eowyn's sword did shatter, but it shattered AFTER it did the damage. 3. Now what about Anduril/Narsil, Glamdring ....as well as Gandalf and Glorfindel ? At Weathertop, Gandalf was fighting nazgul with fire, not with his sword (as far as we know). There is no mention that Gandalf drew Glamdring at the Gate of Minas Tirith, though the WK had his sword in his hand. (And note Gandalf wielded Glamdring against the Barlog) Aragorn didn't draw what remained of the Narsil at Weathertop - he used firebrands instead. To me, it looks like Gandalf and Aragorn knew that their weapons COULDN'T do any serious damage to the nazgul. Gandalf likely was thinking of fighting the WK with fire bolts and lightnings again, and Aragorn used fire. By the way, note that at Weathertop Aragorn told the hobbits to prepare the sticks to light when the nazgul approached. He didn't tell them to use their swords. (That is a very good argument proving that Aragorn DIDN't know about the BD blades properties). So, I believe, NO other sword but that of the Barrow Downs could KILL (not simply wound) a nazgul, making him a mere houseless spirit bound to ME as long as the Nine rings held power. Now whom did nazgul really fear? Gandalf, who used not blades, but magic fire, and even more so Glorfindel, a Calaquendi Elf, a resurrected elf, almost a Maia. Isn't it reasonable to suppose, that the nazgul feared them when they were not using blades, but magic? Glorfindel may have been a great fighter, but Earnur was the best blade in Gondor, still at Fornost the Witch-King believed he could take him on single-handedly with no danger to himself. And that was before the prophesy "no living man". But when he saw Glorfindel, he decided to flee. Now my replies to Landroval: Quote:
I once had a wild theory that it was Gandalf who felt (via Narya) that Frodo has put on the Ring, and somehow suggested these words to him, the same way as he suggested to take off the Ring when Frodo was almost caught by Sauron at Amon Hen. Sort of Ring-Ring communication. Quote:
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Another matter is the spell on the blades, their magic. I believe that the art of enspelling blades came from Numenor, but was all but lost in the Downfall. There is hardly a single major invention that the Numenoreans made in exile. Their knowledge only dwindled, not increased. That last remnant of old lore may have been preserved in Cardolan, but lost in Arthedain and Rhudaur. Or it was re-discovered in Cardolan alone.. Now the High Numenoreans may have produced blades wrought with spells against orcs, against Sauron, even, maybe, against Nazgul. But these particular blades made in Cardolan between 1300 and 1409 were wrought with spells against the King of Carn Dum - a very specific spell. And it took a person really knowledeable in magic to know what exactly this spell was. It was not evident either to Aragorn or Denethor. Maybe not even to Gandalf. By the way, it was really fortunate for the Mouth of Sauron that Mordor ended so soon after he foolishly allowed Gandalf to take Frodo's blade from him. I believe, the 8 remaining nazgul would have torn him to pieces had they heard of it. They only never got a chance... Quote:
And Landroval, don't you think that these two quotes are CONFLICTING? Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 07-03-2006 at 06:00 PM. |
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07-03-2006, 06:00 PM | #53 |
Elf Lord
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Conflicting?? only if you wholly fail to see that it is clearly a metaphorical example. |
07-03-2006, 08:55 PM | #54 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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I agree with most of what you said Gordis, but I am only going to post where I differ with you. It is no fun to just say ‘I agree’ over and over.
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Later, when he found Merry and Pippin’s blades discarded by the Orcs, he stated that the blades were mystical and made by the Dunedain. I think we can assume that he recognized (as Denethor did) that they came from the North. Also he would have noticed that the blades were short and probably bronze, not the kind of swords that would be a Numenorean soldier’s primary weapon. If they weren’t primary weapons (and being bronze, probably weren’t very good back-up weapons either) but were still mystical, then they were probably meant for an important specific purpose. So, we have blades that come from Arnor, aren’t very useful in a regular battle against regular opponents, yet are mystical, and probably have an important, specific purpose. What else are they likely to be made for other than killing the Witch King? |
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07-03-2006, 11:51 PM | #55 | |
Ring-smith
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Of coarce there is the classic 'kill him and take the ring' stratigy or the old 'chop of the finger' trick.
Or you could try hypnotisim, or maybe a game of riddles ... I hope I understand the topic
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Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
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07-04-2006, 09:52 AM | #56 | |||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by Landroval : 07-04-2006 at 11:29 AM. |
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07-04-2006, 12:00 PM | #57 | ||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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I think that your idea that Aragorn knew what kind of blades the Hobbits were carrying is flawed in another way. You have argued that the blades were “anti-evil” or “anti-Sauron and servants” rather than “anti-Nazgul”. You have also argued (and here I agree with you) that the Nazgul could be harmed by weapons other than those which are meant solely for them. So, if Aragorn knew that the Hobbits had magical, anti-Mordor swords, why didn’t he tell them to use them on Weathertop or at the ford? If the fire was so important (and I don’t doubt that part), why not a flaming branch in one hand and a mystical anti-evil sword in the other? Or, if he assumed that they couldn’t handle that, how about two Hobbits with flaming branches and two with the blades? Quote:
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If the Nazgul’s intelligence gathering had been as complete as you suggest, then the Hobbits should have never made it to Bree. Quote:
Last edited by CAB : 07-04-2006 at 12:27 PM. |
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07-04-2006, 02:11 PM | #58 | |||||||||
Elven Warrior
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07-04-2006, 07:52 PM | #59 | |||||||||||||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Then again not only blades are dangerous. Someone might use a burning torch. Another may pout boiling oil etc, etc. Quote:
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Take the Palantir of Orthank. Gandalf and Aragorn knew all the data. They knew that Orthank was never plundered or secked. They knew thast of old there used to be a Stone there. They knew the Ithil stone was captured. But still it took Gandalf and Aragorn to see the shiny ball flung at them from the Tower to understand the nature of the link between Barad Dur and Orthank. And so on and so on. Perhaps, if Aragorn had more time to scratch his head over the blades he could have come to your conclusion. But he had other things on his mind than to think about some old blades. And then, there were plenty of orcs in Angmar. There were some swords (Orcrist, sting, Glamdring, particularly "effecient" against orcs. Why couldn't old Arnorian blades be of the same kind? Quote:
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But only the runes on the blade gave away the nature of the spell laid on them. Quote:
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To me it means that NO ONE, save the nazgul themselves and Tom, still remembered these particular blades with this particular spell. They took them for usual Numenorean/Arnorean "anti-evil" or "anti-orc" variety. Note that the Mouth of Sauron and probably Sauron himself were equally mistaken, it seems. The nazgul recognized the blades because in their presence the blades burned red in the Spirit World. Sting burned blue ONLY when orcs were around. Gandalf, Galadriel etc. had access to the Spirit World, but the blades didn't glow without a nazgul nearby. Likely no nazgul was at hand when Sauron examined Sam's blade (if he did, of course). And the Mouth was no wiser than Denethor. Quote:
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If the Witch-King disappeared when he saw Glorfindel, that was because he was brave, but NOT SUICIDAL. Read what Myths Transformed tell about the Resurrected Elves and you will see WHY. Even "their position in space was at will", the super-powerful magical dudes...) The Witch-King attacked Eowyn even AFTER he understood how dangerous this no-man was. Had he been a coward, he could have turned away and left - she would have hardly ran after him. He entered the waters of Bruinen, even though he most likely knew that Elrond could command the water to rise. After all, wasn't Rivendell besieged by Angmar for quite some time, between 1356 and 1409?? How did the Elves defend their VALLEY (not a FORTRESS)? Surely by strengthening the perimeter defenses - the flooding river and other traps around. And sure he was the only one who attacked Frodo, though he saw clearly what kind of a blade he had and though the hobbit wore the Ruling ring, "the object of terror" for the nazgul. And you call the Witch-King a coward, Landroval? |
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07-05-2006, 10:03 AM | #60 | |||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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I find that hypothesis to be absurd. Quote:
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Gordis, though I left your other (good) points, unaddressed, they are irrelevant as long as the main issue I raised previously is left standing: the nazguls underestimated Frodo at Wheathertop, not the other way around. |
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