02-09-2009, 05:50 PM | #41 | |
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I don't agree with this either. Sauron was stronger than his opponents even without the Ring. No one in Middle Earth could have successfully wielded the Ring against him. He didn't spend a great deal of resources trying to recover it. But, I will agree that he would have willingly traded some Nazgul to regain the Ring. I think the conclusion is simply that he didn't have servants well suited to recovering the One Ring in enemy territory, nothing more. |
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02-09-2009, 06:10 PM | #42 | |||
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A sensible execution, of the objective, Sauron once again wielding the Ring, would then be to make sure that the Ring was in fact obtained. If it's not obtained it does not matter that the second task can only be performed by the Nazgûl. If Sauron understood the nature of the hunt which the Nazgûl would engage in, which basically depended on spreading fear, he would have also seen that it would be a risk not to send back-up. But he didn't. It's then astonishing that Sauron demanded a stealthy approach. It was not going to happen. He did not then comprehend the obvious inhibition the Nazgûl would have obtaining the Ring, excluding whether or not they would actually return it. Quote:
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Yet that does not take away the fact that Sauron was simply unable to compell the Nazgûl to die for him. In other words, he did not have the sort of power that he was made out to have.
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02-09-2009, 07:18 PM | #43 | ||
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Perhaps. Perhaps he could only command a Ringwraith to immolate itself while in possession of the One Ring; but Tolkien said that (UT, “Hunt for the Ring”, third paragraph)
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It is not that the Ringwraiths were incapable or incompetent or indecisive or in defiance. They were simply “unlucky”, as men call it: they just missed Frodo at Bag End, Gildor and his companions showed up in the Woody End, they just missed Frodo at Bamfurlong (Maggot’s Farm), they were late in Crickhollow, and then they completely lost track of the hobbits when they entered the Old Forest. They knew nothing about Bombadil (who had likely been creating problems for the Witch-king many centuries earlier), who spoilt the trap of the barrow-wight, a feat the Nazgûl erroneously attributed to Frodo, and which caused to them proceed more cautiously. (There, Coffeehouse, you can easily assert that they were insufficiently suicidal.) They could not regain track of the hobbits until Bree, and there Frodo and his three companions met Strider the Ranger. And Strider had trouble with them, lots of trouble. Frodo barely made it alive to Rivendell: had he been a Man and not a Hobbit, Gandalf, Aragorn, Glorfindel and Elrond all seemed in agreement that he would have succumbed to the Morgul-wound: even Gandalf was (pleasantly!) surprised. Without Glorfindel foiling their plans to block the Last Bridge, putting Frodo on his swifter (and more intelligent) horse, and finally chasing six (?) of the Nazgûl into the raging Bruinen, they would still have overcome their prey. I don’t think we can fault the Nazgûl in their ruthless, single-minded pursuit. At any number of places they should have captured the Ring, as Sauron anticipated: they were thwarted, or mistimed, occasionally daunted, but mostly just what we would call “unlucky”. They couldn’t very well have stormed the Shire: that would have meant their quarry escaped. A few of them tried storming the Prancing Pony; they assaulted Weathertop and found the defenders unexpectedly resistant: and in this case, we must remember the backstory (as revealed in Tolkien’s notes published in Reader’s Companion) that they thought that Frodo had overthrown the barrow-wight, and he and his companions were wielding dreaded barrow-blades forged by the Northern Dúnedain. Then Aragorn made them chase him and his charges through the trackless wilderness, and the critters couldn’t see well. Finally, they had Frodo trapped at the ford, where he finally collapsed because of his wound and could go no further: there they would indeed have captured him, except that Elrond (and Gandalf) unleashed a flood, an event they could not be expected to anticipate and for which they were completely unprepared. All in all, I give the Nazgûl a thoroughly terrifying A; but give I Aragorn an outstanding A+, which a many-rayed silver star to boot. Last edited by Alcuin : 02-09-2009 at 07:30 PM. |
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02-09-2009, 07:39 PM | #44 | ||
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But I'll iriterate what I argued in the thread "Nâzgul in the Prancing Pony?", http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=14908&page=2, " Quote:
Now, I want to add since the issue of the 'dreaded barrow-blades' was brought up. Obviously that is a lethal weapon, and accordingly the Witch-King and his Nazgûl companions are actually afraid of it. Yet if we think about it the blade is just a blade. Whether it actually hits the Witch-King or not would be the difference thus, a lethal blow wherever it hit the Witch-king. Yet great warriors find themselves in man-to-man combat all the time and a truly skilled warrior would effectively avoid being hit. It should in other words take a great deal to strike anywhere near the Witch-King. Attributing it then to just bad luck for the Witch-King that Frodo seemed to carry a lethal blade is not good enough. For a sword-wielding expert such as the Witch-King it should therefore not matter what blade Frodo was carrying. All in all there should be only one outcome: and that is that the Witch-King strikes Frodo without being even remotely close to danger. That the Witch-King falls on bad luck because that little brat Frodo utters some Elvish words and wields a blade that could prove lethal is not believable. It's not bad luck, it's incompetence and a lack of focus when it matters the most!
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02-09-2009, 08:32 PM | #45 | ||
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My answer to that is to recount Gandalf’s explanation of how he became involved with Thorin and his expedition to Erebor, and how Gandalf came to involve Bilbo, almost on a whim, as it were. In Unfinished Takes, “Hunt for the Ring”, the very end of the first telling, Gandalf says,
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In the earlier version of the telling, “typescript B”, Gandalf recalls arguing with the Dwarves about whether or not they should take Bilbo. Quote:
-|-(Added later) My apologies, Coffeehouse. I was so stuck on “luck” and Gandalf the White’s remark on “chance”, hoping that everyone would notice a parallel to the Ringwraiths’ “bad luck” in pursuing Frodo and his companions (cf. UT, “Hunt for the Ring”: “In his heart Saruman recognized the great power and the strange ‘good fortune’ that went with Gandalf.” And Gandalf’s words to Pippin after he looked into the palant*r: “You have been saved .... mainly by good fortune, as it is called. You cannot count on it a second time.”) that I did not properly respond to your position. You are correct, I think, that the Nazgûl were afraid – really afraid – of the barrow-blades. We now know they believed – wrongly, but it was helpful to Frodo and his companions – that Frodo had dispatched the barrow-wight. The others held back, but the Witch-king was undaunted. A true warrior, albeit an evil one, he attacked Frodo anyway, wounded him, and believing the wound mortal (it always had been in the past, at least so far from proper facilities, supplies, and presumably away from skilled and knowledgeable people – he did not recognize Aragorn, of course), he and his fellows backed off while the malevolent effects ran their inevitable, destructive course. It was the wise and sensible thing to do, and without Aragorn to slow the progress of the splinter in the wound, it would have been successful in overcoming Frodo before he reached Rivendell, however hardy he might have been. Last edited by Alcuin : 02-09-2009 at 09:58 PM. |
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02-10-2009, 04:35 AM | #46 | |||||
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The nazgul were NOT chosen because "they were supposed to complete their task no matter the cost." No. For that Sauron had other servants, maybe he had something like the Hashashin, why not? But they were not the nazgul. You misunderstand the nazgul's "profession." The nazgul were most valuable, they were IRREPLACABLE, that was a great difference from any expendable killers. Quote:
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A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death. Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow. Last edited by Gordis : 02-10-2009 at 05:51 AM. |
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02-10-2009, 09:09 AM | #47 | ||
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I disagree about their irreplaceability. I don't believe Tolkien wrote that they were (is there some quote that can back this up?), and you are forgetting one aspect. Although they were highly valuable, they weren't more valuable than the One Ring. It's quite easy to imagine Sauron expending one or two of his Nazgûl in return for the One Ring. If you can answer this I'll rest my case: Why wouldn't he? Quote:
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02-10-2009, 09:26 AM | #48 | ||||||
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Note that at Crickhollow the nazgul at the door apparently unsheathed another such blade: Quote:
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02-10-2009, 09:54 AM | #49 |
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And yet he along with four other Nazgul fled from this ONE wielding nothing but a flickering torch. I know, he feared the barrow blades, too, but Aragorn's appearance was certainly a factor in their flight, as wall as feeling assured of victory having already stabbed Frodo. It was just a matter of time.
Also, I'm not sure the tale of slain heirs is as long as you seem to imply. Who has he personally killed that we know of? Earnur, assuming he's actually dead and not still undergoing some sort of undead torture chamber in Minas Morgul. Arvedui's boat sank. You might credit WiKi with part of that, maybe. Who else? Granted, I haven't delved as deeply into HoME as many others here, but I can't recall a single instance where WiKi specifically killed an heir. I'm sure he killed many Numenorians on the battlefields of the north but kings or kings' sons, I'd be interested to read about.
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02-10-2009, 10:43 AM | #50 | ||||
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In the drafts for the Tale of Years there is a note about Arveleg: Quote:
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02-10-2009, 02:43 PM | #51 | |||
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-|-Added later FYI, RotK, “Appendix A” says that Narmacil II was killed fighting against the Wainriders; in UT, “Cirion and Eorl” (footnote 8), Tolkien says this battle was called the Battle of the Plains. As for Argeleb I and Arveleg I, they are good candidates, and they certainly died as a result of the Witch-king’s machinations. “Appendix A” says, “Argeleb ... was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar. ... A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, ... and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain.” I will incorporate the information about Arveleg and a note documenting the reference to an alternate ending for Narmacil into the essay. Thanks again! Last edited by Alcuin : 02-10-2009 at 03:32 PM. |
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02-10-2009, 02:49 PM | #52 |
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I certainly agree with the consensus that the Nazgul failed in their primary duty. I would point out that, even if an Orc (or even a Black Numenorean) seized the Ring, that the scenario played out by JRRT in one of the Letters (sorry, don't have my books with me ) in which Frodo claimed the Ring, was placated by the Nine pretending to take his orders while Sauron arranged to come phsyically came to attend to him would have played out. JRRT definitely says that Frodo, even with the Ring, was no match for Sauron. So, all things considered, using Orcs or Men would have been a better choice. But, Sauron trusted the Nazgul, and them only, with his Precious, for reasons of jealousy and fear, no doubt.
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02-10-2009, 03:16 PM | #53 | |
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It's possible to make the argument that the Nazgûl had a fantastic string of bad luck that simply denied them a well-deserved catch. But surely you can turn that logic around and then we can look at it from another point-of-view. The Nazgûl were fortunate enough to chase between Bag End and the Old Forest not a group of High-Elves carrying the ring or a heavily protected ring-bearer, but three defenseless hobbits who had no idea what they were up against. Bar the night with Gildor and the High-Elves the three hobbits were pretty much sitting ducks. The Nazgûl were also present in Bree, a town with as much history of combat as the last few hundred years put together of Zürich or Geneva. The Nazgûl could participate in sieges and great battles but not break their way in to an Inn, off all fortified places. I think that shows incompetence, and although Aragorn makes the point that there are many miles yet left of Eriador that would be a poor way to go about it wouldn't it. No worries Stalin!, Hitler's army is only come to Moscow. He still has to cross the rest of Russia, not to mention Siberia. It's not a rush
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02-10-2009, 03:39 PM | #54 | |||
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I think the nazgul did not attack the common room because they were so few - not because they were afraid of locals, but because they feared to lose their prey. Imagine two nazgul with drawn swords rushing into the common room of the Prancing Pony and ordering everyone to please remain where they are and put their jewelry on the table. What will happen? Some customers, like Strider, maybe also the Dwarves, will stand and fight, but the majority - all the intoxicated locals and all the hobbits included - will stampede in mindless terror through doors, windows and all sorts of exits that they would find. Without automatic fire weapons it is impossible to control everyone in the room, let us face it. The nazgul had not enough men to surround the inn and kill everyone who escaped. It is almost inevitable that some hobbits would get away. And so what? The nazgul knew for sure that the Ring was in Bree at the moment and later would be moving towards Rivendell. Acting like that would only send the Ringbearer flying - and who knows where? He could hide in any hole in the Bree-hill and lie there low, he could get out of Bree and run north, east west or south. Much better was to wait and try to burglar their rooms at night - quietly. It was exactly what they did. |
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02-10-2009, 03:59 PM | #55 | |
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And I agree that there possibly would be much confusion in such a raid. But it again shows incompetence because in Bree the Nazgûl weren't out of luck, but undermanned. The Nazgûl, by splitting up into so many groups, could not effectively execute their mission when they finally had circled in on the ring-bearer and should have struck. Instead they wait until the attack at Weathertop, which shows just how many miles that passed from the hobbits left Bag End till they finally were confronted head-on. It's inefficient, and I give it a C+ at best. The Witch-King gets a minus score for sending two-three completely unreliable and hot-headed Nazgûl for Bree instead of going to the place himself. The Nazgûl in Bree get an even lower score for losing their heads in the situation with Merry, and later when they were suppoed to recover the ring during the night. It's not a F for failure, but it's outright incompetence. In Bree I think C+ is generous.
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02-10-2009, 04:51 PM | #56 | |||||||
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I think that is an excellent observation.
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The problem for the Nazgûl seems to be that their senses were ruined for this kind of tracking effort, which they do not seem to have anticipated. No doubt several of them were excellent hunters during their normal lives; but as Ringwraiths, they probably suffered from the same loss of normal sight as Sam when he put on the Ring in the Cleft of Cirith Ungol: he couldn’t see well at all. Even the hobbits noticed that they had trouble seeing, and Merry asked Strider about it atop Weathertop. Quote:
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02-10-2009, 06:48 PM | #57 | ||
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I'll give it to you, those are some very persuasive arguments you make Alcuin, I might have to re-adjust the overall poor image I have of the Nazgûl to slightly better Yet although the Nazgûl nearly got to Fatty Bolger at Crickhollow, they weren't even close to taking the house when the ring-bearer was present, and that's what counts right? It seems having to cross the Brandywine really reduced their chances of getting to Frodo before he crossed into the Old Forest with Sam, Pippin and Merry. So should they be pardoned for having to cross a river or should we expect faster, more intelligent solutions by the Nazgûl? I think this again plays into their cognitive abilities. I just don't think they were particularly creative (bar the minimum a nocturnal hunter would have to have) Quote:
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02-10-2009, 07:07 PM | #58 |
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Regarding the retreat on Weathertop, I think we do the Nazgul a disservice by concentrating on the Barrow-blade itself rather than on the implications of Frodo's possession of the sword. The Nazgul expected to find a helpless prey on the hill, but instead saw something quite different (at least in their minds). In the heat of that moment they were probably thinking something like: "A Barrow-blade? Why does he have that? Does he know our weaknesses? How did he get that? He must have defeated a wight. How could a halfling defeat a wight? Wait a minute! Has he learned how to wield the Ring? Uh-oh."
One more reason why the Nazgul had to be the ones to retrieve the Ring: The bearer could become invisible to Orcs and Men, but not Nazgul. Yes, he could be tracked by Orcs or Men, but I would think that actually being able to see him would be necessary at some point. Frodo never really used the invisibility conferred by the Ring, but if needed he could have, and Sauron knew it. Exactly. If his possession of the Ring was really that important to him, he should have gone himself. He didn't. He sent the best help he had, but knew that the task would prove difficult for them. Later, he only sent a handful of Orcs to Moria. He sent another handful of Orcs and one Nazgul to the river after the company left Lorien. Why did he expend so few resources? Why didn't he make some sort of bold, aggressive move to recover his Ring? Because it was only a piece of the puzzle for him. Granted, it was a large piece, but not overwhelmingly large. |
02-10-2009, 07:32 PM | #59 | |
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What were the two other Nazgûl doing anyways? It's not like it was a confusing situation. They stood behind him, must have known that the little hobbit wasn't going to stab them from that distance, and should instead have spotted Strider as he came out of the darkness. If the Nazgûl can't see well in the sunlight one must expect that they see alot better in the dark and so why weren't the two Nazgûl covering their Captain while he went ahead, risking his life, to retrieve the One Ring?
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02-10-2009, 08:16 PM | #60 | ||||||||
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Besides, if the Wise determined that he was on the move – and they probably would have made that guess fairly quickly – they would have taken moves to counter him. As far as Sauron knew, the Wise could have known about his Ring, and taken steps to remove it to other quarters. Moreover, Saruman, who at this late stage was communicating with Sauron and cooperating with him to some degree, was also extremely unreliable as an ally: one of the main reasons Sauron used the Nazgûl was because (UT, “Hunt for the Ring”) Quote:
In FotR, “Council of Elrond”, Gandalf told the Council that Quote:
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Frodo had borne the One Ring already for 17 years. After 17 years, the Nazgûl had probably learned quite a lot about their Rings and the powers they could summon using those Rings: as far as they knew, Frodo must have begun to use the power of the One Ring. After all, he had defeated the barrow-wight, right? From Reader’s Companion, “A Knife in the Dark”, more of Tolkien’s notes about the Nazgûl from 196 (I:208). The Witch-king Quote:
After Weathertop, however, the Nazgûl figured their long chase was almost over: “the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and … cannot last more than a day or two.” Coffeehouse, CAB, and Gordis, I believe you have all argued that the Nazgûl were reluctant hunters at one point or another. This same passage, close to its end, says of the Witch-king, Quote:
As for why the Morgul-lord did not cut off Frodo’s hand and run off with the Ring * la Gollum, he seems to have been frightened himself, and stabbing Frodo with the knife was sure to overcome him, as it had nearly always overcome every other victim for centuries upon centuries. |
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