12-01-2005, 10:52 PM | #41 | ||||
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It's an issue of drawing the line. Some "means to an end" everyone accepts, so the argument that "the ends never justify the means", is quite obviously invalid. However, it is quite obvious also that sometimes the ends do not justify the means. For example, if I hung my child up by his toes as punishment for sneaking candies, that would very likely solve the issue. It is doubtful that he will ever steal candies again. However, it is a clearly invalid means to an end. Where to draw the line is an interesting question, and the answer is not clear to me.
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12-01-2005, 10:56 PM | #42 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-02-2005, 02:31 AM | #43 | ||
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Something that I don’t think has been really defined here is what exactly you mean when you say “torture”. When most people think of torture they think of horrible unspeakable sadistic rituals involving hot irons or racks or sticking things in certain places or nipping off certain body parts etc. Just gastly stuff. But some people consider sleep deprivation torture. Or being forced to appear naked in front of women torture. Or holding a gun to ones head torture. So just what is it you had in mind exactly? Quote:
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12-02-2005, 04:00 AM | #44 | ||||||
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The point of torture is not always to keep people alive to make them feel pain. That is many times absolutely not the purpose in it. Sometimes it is done strictly for the purpose of saving lives, by making an example of enemies to intimidate opponents, thus weakening their war effort, or to gain information that will preserve the lives of your own people. Quote:
When considering the death penalty, I first went into the issue of whether or not it was ethical and then afterward into whether or not it was practical. The ethics mean the most to me. A policy usually has to pass both tests, however, to be valid to me. I'm beginning to suspect that there cannot be a moral objection from an atheist/agnostic perspective. Perhaps the only possible objections from that standpoint must be technical. RĂ*an, what are your thoughts on the issue of torture?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-02-2005 at 04:05 AM. |
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12-02-2005, 04:01 AM | #45 |
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Bump (probably unnecessary).
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-02-2005, 05:24 AM | #46 | |
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FYI, the definition of torture under international law:
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12-02-2005, 05:28 AM | #47 |
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That sounds to me like a fine definition.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-02-2005, 05:42 AM | #48 | |
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12-02-2005, 06:50 AM | #49 | |
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12-02-2005, 08:14 AM | #50 | |
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Like I said though, it would basically turn into a hi-jack of this thread. Lief - I'm glad you willingly broadened this discussion from ONLY ethical to BOTH ethical and practical. I think to different people, there could be a varying amount of connection between the two. Here's a question to toss out: If torture DID generally provide information (or other results) which was/were useful and/or helpful - would it THEN be OK?
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12-02-2005, 10:18 AM | #51 | |
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but for this one i'll agree... it would take things quite off-topic, though maybe and interesting one to address another time if i'm feeling more ambitious
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12-02-2005, 10:55 AM | #52 | |
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and if you look at the bigger picture of the civil war, which was not about slavery, but about keeping us together as a single country... one could very easily argue that it was simply not worth it... was it "necessary" to keep us as one nation? was it worth 600,000 lives? this may be an easy question from a nationalistic standpoint, but it is a tough question from a purely moral standpoint... the people of the south were not "evil", and the slavery issue would eventually have taken care of itself, as it did in the rest of the free world... can one say without a shadow of a doubt that two separate countries living along side each other to this very day would have necessarily been a worse outcome if it spared 600,000 lives? we even see this moral dilemma today when we conduct war via bombing... a technique that is much safer in terms of preserving the lives of american servicemen, but much more costly when it comes to civilian lives lost on the opposing side and when you speak of "enemies not holding guns", you have to remember that their motivations may simply be self-preservation of their way of life, their families and their own lives... in situations like the southern rebellion during the civil war or germany/japan during ww2, the average civilian had very little choice over whether or not to go to war... they were forced into the situation by a relatively small group of individuals and responded the only way they could... self-defense i highly suggest you read this entire article on Hiroshima... it gives a very interesting perspective on the idea of "necessary" the bottom line, if you choose not to read it, is that there were many diplomatic possibilities that may have avoided the "necessity" of dropping the two atomic bombs which, in turn, goes back to torture... the "technicalities" are the most important aspects... does it work? is it the best course of action? and, even if it does work, does it set a precedent or create a situation that is ultimately even more dangerous than the one we were trying to avoid in the first place by employing torture?
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12-02-2005, 11:27 AM | #53 | ||||||
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Which brings up yet another good reason NOT to torture. Because of the precedent it sets. If you are the most powerful force on earth and you resort to cruelly torturing your prisoners then you are giving others the impetus and the right to torture your captured soldiers or innocents. If we are to speak about following the rules of war and promoting democracy and fairness and decency toward our fellow humans then we do ourselves a great disservice by turning around and doing exactly what we condemn others for doing. After all isn’t that part of the argument the administration used against Sadam Hussain? That he cruelly tortured his own citizens so he needed to be brought to justice for this? And what means do we use to do that? Why torture of course. Now does that make any sense to you whatsoever? If you want to be known as the pillar of “morality” and a shining example to other “lesser civilized” folks then you cant have it both ways. Quote:
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12-02-2005, 12:52 PM | #54 | |
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It's not your religion that determines if there's morality in you. It is your own self that does. Christians can lack morality just as well as atheists/agnostics can be full of it.
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12-02-2005, 01:01 PM | #55 | ||
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wow it sort of is sounding like a philosophical debate now.
i posted on the first page about the inneffectiveness of torture maybe it didn't show up or something, anyway i basically said that it simply doesn't for the simple reason that if your torturings someone by sticking toothpicks in him and lighting them he's going to tell you what you want to know -whether he knows anything or not-to get the torture to stop. Morally speaking -if were going to argue along those bounds-, torture is reprehensible. everyone here agrees on that it would seem. I for one as a sith lord have never had a need for torture; force mind control works way better and i always know i'm getting the truth.
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Last edited by rohirrim TR : 12-02-2005 at 01:02 PM. |
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12-02-2005, 01:40 PM | #56 |
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At this moment I'm in the middle of school work, so unfortunately, I don't have time to respond to everything in depth at this moment. I'm just posting to say that as regards my comment about atheism/agnosticism, I did come off pretty unclearly. I didn't mean that there are no atheists or agnostics who behave in a moral way . There certainly are some excellent atheists and some hideous Christians. What I said was just an aside, a comment that I don't think atheists have any rational reason from their belief system that justifies their moral stance. The only reasons they can use are technical. I know, they use words like "disgusting," at times. This doesn't jive with their belief system, however, for if there is no God and morality is man-invented, there is no real reason to NOT torture.
This is irrelevant though and extremely off-topic. Sorry for bringing it up . I'll respond to the rest of what's been written as soon as I can!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-02-2005, 01:41 PM | #57 |
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IIRC the concept of ethics and good sportsmanship went out by the end of WW I. As Gen. Patton said "you win by letting the other guy bleed, the other guy die".
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12-02-2005, 02:04 PM | #58 | |
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Chivalry in warfare is a myth, methinks. What changed was the technology of mass (and long-distance) killing, not our ethics. |
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12-02-2005, 02:06 PM | #59 |
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What changed even more was the liberal establishment got a huge gain with mass communications...IMO
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12-02-2005, 02:13 PM | #60 | |
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in contrast, one could argue that the only way to make something appear moral that does not make any real-world "technical" sense is via morality derived from a supernatural source... this is what the terrorists do, as do some who oppose them torture is wrong because of those very technical reasons... there is no need to look any further, and it is wrong to ignore them
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