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#41 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
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Maybe I have forgotten this....but in the book Frodo didn't ride by himself....did he? So what are you talking about.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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#42 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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Yes he did.
Glorfindel chucks him up on Asfaloth and they all head to the Fords together. Then as they come out of the cutting leading to the Fords they hear 5 of the Nazgul behind, and Gloryfiddle sends his cute lil horse legging it away with just Frodo off to the Fords. And re: Arwen, I can stomach her in the film, because I can just about disconnect myself from the books enough. BUT IMNSHO they should have developed her character other ways. THere are many characters in LotR (eg Elrond) who are strong characters (although less so in the film *sigh*) without the need to be seen in combat. In fact, part of the very real thread through LotR according to the books is that the Elves really achieve little punitive action - the story covers the fading of the Elves and the rise of Man. Elves (apart from Legolas) achieve sweet FA in real terms, they are more wise counsellors. And note that Legolas is not of the High Elves, and so in a way more connected to ME than maybe them. Arwen IS a reasonable babe, but she's no Evenstar (other than hopefully of her own career). And her speaking Elvish I couldn't help getting the feeling she had a lithp. |
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#43 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
oh, ok.........
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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#44 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 1,176
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Liv Tyler called up her father's river? Steven Tyler's river? Yeeecccchhhh!! The very mental picture triggers immediate waves of revulsion....
Just kidding, hiku747, I knowed what ya meant...and welcome to the Moot! Welcome to you too, ladeeda.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
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#45 |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: misty oregon
Posts: 95
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![]() i appreciated the expanded role of arwen in the film. it was good to see a woman of power and action in relation to a 'tolkien' work.
imo: his writings, while not negative toward women,are naturally entrenched in the male-first ideaology of his generation. his female characters that come from 'powerful' races are only passively powerful & so, not action oriented. in fact, they sometimes seem to me to be only foils or 'feminine' reflections of the primary male characters.
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Ai na vedui . . . Mae govannen! |
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#46 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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Ah yes but how far do you want to take it?
In LotR Tolkien was in effect racist too, if only cos the Elves, although technically superior to Men in all ways, actually achieved bugger all. I think you can read into it what you want, but you can bet your life that parallel times in real history (middle ages etc. when fighting / soldiers / knights etc. actually existed) women did not get up and be heroes. Examples would be very few and far between. In the overall context though, I think Eowyn is more unlikely than Arwen, since Elves rock. Human female warriors would not be encouraged - indeed at Edoras she was basically a servant to the men, although I'm not sure when she was supposed to be trained up ![]() Basically, I think it was simply unecessary, and I always find it strange when women complain about not having a strong character (which PJ got around by doing up Arwen). I mean, it's a film for God's sake, let's not read to much into it. It's a fantasy film, not some prophetic message of women subservience or domination! Feminists, bah ![]() |
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#47 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 319
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RE
I agree with you wholeheartedly Gerbil.
Geez, these women...when will they learn! ![]()
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. |
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#48 | |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: misty oregon
Posts: 95
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Quote:
perhaps i should have said her part in the movie was an interesting ploy on the part of PJ to draw in young males who seem to adore the actress thereby increasing revenues; & as a small aside, young women who haven't as yet read the books might be suckered in by her character into actually doing some interesting reading. btw - 'your welcome'! that is for the opportunity to vent your spleen against feminists! ?feel better, now? ![]()
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Ai na vedui . . . Mae govannen! |
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#49 | |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: misty oregon
Posts: 95
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![]() Quote:
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Ai na vedui . . . Mae govannen! |
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#50 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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It's not that we can teach women anything, it's just they need to work out what they want.
They can let me know when they've decided. Until then I like my women to be feminine ![]() |
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#51 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan?
Posts: 1,315
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Please define the word "Feminine," Gerbil.
Oh, and I don't really mind arwen in the film too much, but she detracts from Frodo's strength and character in standing up to the ringwriaths . . . Grrr . . .
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The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka |
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#52 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 479
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Yeah. In general, I tend to throw out (= ignore) comments like "I like my women feminine" because it means absolutely nothing. Feminine just mean having qualities of a female, which by definition, all women are. So it's kind of...not helpful.
![]() ![]() One thing I resent is that when people praise a person or character as being a "strong woman", they usually mean physically strong. Like, Arwen in the book is not good enough because she doesn't ride fast and carry a sword. Put her at the Flight to the Ford and all of a sudden she is a strong woman and isn't it nice that women have a larger role? It detracts from all those women (or people, regardless of gender) who show other ways of being strong. Galadriel doesn't have to lift so much as a jewelled dagger and there is no question that she is powerful. I have always thought that the most admirable quality of Eowyn was the fact that, in spite of a great personal struggle, she managed to stand tall even though she was undervalued in her position. It must have been very difficult to have to nurse her ailing father, not be able to do anything about the sad state of her kingdom, and not be appreciated because she was not a man. We do know that she felt very helpless, but she did not give up and she was willing to do all she could. The fact that she slew a ringwraith is just an add-on to that. Might in battle is one aspect of strength and bravery. It is not the only one. I wish people could look around and be able to see the strength that it takes to be a certain character, even if it does not involve fighting. That doesn't mean to say that a woman can't be a great fighter or a man can't show perserverance when no one believes in him. Strength of character, strength of body, strength of mind - these belong to neither sex exclusively. But we shouldn't have to feel that only one of these is superior to the other. I guess when I see that the way they decided to make Arwen stronger was by giving her a sword, I felt they took the easy way out. I hope when they go to do Eowyn, we get to see her inner strength as well. |
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#53 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: rural oklahoma
Posts: 324
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Excellent post Mirrille. I agree with you entirely. Strength in many people's mind is limited to the power of muscle as opposed to the power of the mind or the power of the will.
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"We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm. Last edited by CardenIAntauraNauco : 01-22-2002 at 09:37 PM. |
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#54 | |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: misty oregon
Posts: 95
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Quote:
when i referred to arwen as a strong female character, though, i didn't mean necessarily physically strong. i simply meant that her role was enlarged, made more prominent, so that her character seemed as important as the others.
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Ai na vedui . . . Mae govannen! |
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#55 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan?
Posts: 1,315
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Go Mirrille!!! I couldn't have said it better myself.
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The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka |
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#56 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: minneapolis MN
Posts: 920
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Good Post Mirrille.
Eowyn also impressed me when she overcame the deathwish she seemed to have and realized there was honor in things other than just battle. |
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#57 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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![]() I do agree with Mirrille 100% concerning "strong woman".
Concerning Arwen, I do think that Arwen's character was sort of confusing in the movie. She's wielding a swordand sneaking up on Aragorn in the beginning - but then has no role afterward. What's that all about? I also think it was a marketing ploy. All any one has to look at is the fact that BK produced a glass mug of her - when she only had about 15 minutes of screen time. Also she was used a lot in the advertisements. I had always thought that Eowyn, Galadriel and Luthien were all very strong female characters in LOTR.. I don't think that there are few female characters in Tolkiens books because he was sexist - but because in some ways he created LOTR as a historical fantasy. Historically there were few strong female characters. Empress Matilda the mother of Henry II was the most powerful woman in England, until probably Queen Elizabeth II. She waged war against King Stephen and deposed him as king. This took place around 1135.
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#58 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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Hmmm me wonders whether the people who think that Arwen with a sword is strong are actually male? As in it's not so much empowering women, but possibly playing up to men quite liking the dominant image (eg Xena, Dark Angel, Buffy etc - yes I know they appeal to women, but let's be honest, the roles are primarily female because it appeals to MALES).
As for my definition of feminine, I'm just old fashioned. It's not that I want them demure and submissive, but 'modern' women who drink lager, get drunk, make idiots of themselves, sleep around etc (the work hard, play hard ethos) just does nothing for me. I like long hair (the longer the better mmmmmm ![]() ![]() But other than that, I love all women ![]() |
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#59 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 1,176
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Oh well, I ain't touching the whole "feminine woman" issue...looks dangerous!
Good points made above regarding what makes a strong woman. Don't have a lot to add above what has already been said, except for: There is also strength in wisdom. Tolkien's heroines possess that in spades. As far as Eowyn "slaying" the Lord of the Nazgul, I think it again shows the importance of the unexpected actions of the weak in the affairs of the mighty. Nice line in the signature about that. BTW, nice hamster pic, Gerbil! ![]()
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
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#60 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 319
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RE: Arwen in the Movie, How did you feel about her?
Gerbil, you're walking into a mine field, I'd suggest you get the hell out!
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. |
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