The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor - Page 3

***Earniel*** · 05-04-2003, 04:46 PM

I agree, I don't think Morgoth had any hand in the creation of the Silmarils or in FÃ«anor's jewelmakingskills. But I remember reading somewhere (that's all I seem to do, don't I? I always remember reading something but never where. It's driving me spare! hey that rhymes...

)

As I said I remember reading somewhere that later on, Morgoth often bragged about having taught FÃ«anor though in reality FÃ«anor hated him and would never have accepted any teaching of Morgoth. *sigh* I wish I'd remember where I read it. Not knowing where I saw it always makes me unsure whether I really read it or just imagined.

Falagar · 05-04-2003, 04:55 PM

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As I said I remember reading somewhere that later on, Morgoth often bragged about having taught FÃ«anor though in reality FÃ«anor hated him and would never have accepted any teaching of Morgoth. *sigh* I wish I'd remember where I read it. Not knowing where I saw it always makes me unsure whether I really read it or just imagined.

Was it this passage?

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Melkor indeed declared afterwards that FÃ«anor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in the lust and his envy, for none of the EldaliÃ« ever hated Melkor more than FÃ«anor, son of FinwÃ«, who first named him Morgoth; and snared as he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no councel from him.

From the Silmarillion, can't remember the chapters name (think it was "OF FÃ«anor and the Unchanging of Melkor")

***Earniel*** · 05-04-2003, 05:03 PM

Yes! *hugs Falagar* Thank you!

*smacks herself on the forehead* Oh man, that's from the chapter I reviewed myself only a few weeks ago!

*hides in the gloom under a rock in deep, deep shame* I'm so ashamed of my self.....

Maedhros · 05-04-2003, 05:28 PM

Bravo Cassiopea. I tip my hat to you.

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feel that FÃ«anor was too hasty in confronting his half-brother, although no doubt the lies of Melkor fired the flame in his belly.

This might bring a little clarity to the discussion:
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas: Of The Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

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Â§52e But even as he spoke, suddenly FÃ«anor appeared, and he strode into the chamber tall and threatening. A fire of anger was in his eyes, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said: 'my half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters. He would not wait for the council, where all words would be heard by all, and answered. He would speak against me in secret. This I will not brook!' he cried, turning upon Fingolfin. 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!' Then as a flash of flame he drew his sword. 'Get thee gone and dare my wrath no longer!'

Why would the noble Fingolfin not give FÃ«anor the time for him to defend himself and wait for the council to be ready. What FÃ«anor did was wrong but, why wouldn't Fingolfin wait for both causes to be stated before everyone.

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Did FÃ«anor foreshadow the destruction of the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant? If FÃ«anor possessed such precognitive powers, why did he not foreshadow the destruction the Silmarils would ultimately cause?

You could make the same cause with both NÃ¡mo and ManwÃ«. Did NÃ¡mo knew that FinwÃ« would be slained in Formenos by Morgoth, and if so, why didn't he do anything to stop it.

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Is there any significance in the fact that three Silmarilli were made? Has it something to do with the three themes of IlÃºvatar, or something else?

Could be, of course there could be said that a greater parallel exists between the Elven rings made by Celebrimbor and the Silmarils of FÃ«anor. Maybe Tolkien liked the number 3.

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All right, I admit, I don't quite understand this passage. When the Sun passes and the Moon falls, the Earth will be unmade as well (I assume, but perhaps Iâ€™m wrong). The elves are bound to the Earth, so I thought when the Earth is destroyed, the elves would die. After all, the destruction the Silmarils caused, surely it would be a good idea to never real their substance, lest another tragedy occurs.

The Silmarils are not the cause of the Tragedy of the Ã‘oldor, it's the marring of Arda by Morgoth. If the Second Prophecy of Mandos of the Quenta Ã‘oldorinwa is true, then in the end, when Morgoth will return and the last battle will be fought, he would be defeated once and for all and the New Arda, Arda remade, that is Arda with the marred elements of Melkors cured, will be greater than Arda unmarred, Arda without the Melkorian elements. And it will be because of the Silmarils of FÃ«anor that the trees will be made again, and all would be good.

Falagar · 05-04-2003, 05:36 PM

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The Silmarils are not the cause of the Tragedy of the Ã‘oldor, it's the marring of Arda by Morgoth. If the Second Prophecy of Mandos of the Quenta Ã‘oldorinwa is true, then in the end, when Morgoth will return and the last battle will be fought, he would be defeated once and for all and the New Arda, Arda remade, that is Arda with the marred elements of Melkors cured, will be greater than Arda unmarred, Arda without the Melkorian elements. And it will be because of the Silmarils of FÃ«anor that the trees will be made again, and all would be good.

I think Eru should hurry up...

cassiopeia · 05-04-2003, 09:22 PM

*Blushes* Thanks Maedhros, I was actually very nervous posting my introduction.

That's interesting about Galadriel's phial. Did she actually make it, and if so did she learn it from Aule or Mathan? I don't suppose the phial would be made of the same materials as the Silmarils, so does that mean there are two (at least) kinds of material that can catch light? Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils.

Maedhros · 05-04-2003, 10:31 PM

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Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils.

Maybe he could. After all his knowledge was great. It seems to me that in his perversion and downfall, he couldn't create things only mock. In a way he lost his originality. He bred dragons, orcs, etc.
Now that I think about it, Dragons are an original concept.

. I guess this opens the question as to what is a dragon?

Artanis · 05-05-2003, 02:38 AM

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Originally posted by cassiopeia
Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils.

I don't think Melkor had the ability to work with light. Darkness had been his domain, even since the Music. When the SIlmarils had been created, he lusted for them in the same way as he desired the dominion of Arda. He was unable to create anything himself, so he was left to steal and corrupt the creations of others. He also hated the Elves and held them responsible for his defeat and his long exile in the Void, and he was jealous of their life in bliss in Aman. To bereave them from the light of the Two Trees, to set them up against the Valar and steal the Silmarils was a delightful revenge

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Originally posted by Maedhros
I guess this opens the question as to what is a dragon?

O-o. Serious OT warning.

Must ..... resist ...... to ..... answer ......

***RÃan*** · 05-05-2003, 12:01 PM

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Originally posted by Maedhros
.....Now that I think about it, Dragons are an original concept. . I guess this opens the question as to what is a dragon?

I thought I had read somewhere that Melkor's dragons were a copy/corruption of ManwÃ«'s Eagles - does that sound familiar to anyone?

Sween · 05-05-2003, 12:12 PM

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Originally posted by RÃ*an
I thought I had read somewhere that Melkor's dragons were a copy/corruption of ManwÃ«'s Eagles - does that sound familiar to anyone?

I would personally verge on the side that thinks that the quote about not been able to make anything new a bit of a exgeration im sure dragons where an origional creation made only in an attempt to challenge the might of manwes Eagels

***Earniel*** · 05-05-2003, 12:42 PM

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Originally posted by Maedhros
Why would the noble Fingolfin not give FÃ«anor the time for him to defend himself and wait for the council to be ready. What FÃ«anor did was wrong but, why wouldn't Fingolfin wait for both causes to be stated before everyone.

Perhaps because he knew how much FinwÃ« loved FÃ«anor and feared maybe that FinwÃ« would not listen to him when FÃ«anor was present. As for the council, I suppose he didn't feel all to happy discussing his brother's acts before the council. I can understand one would want to discuss such things with one's father in private. It's what I would do.

Sween · 05-05-2003, 12:46 PM

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Originally posted by EÃ¤rniel
Perhaps because he knew how much FinwÃ« loved FÃ«anor and feared maybe that FinwÃ« would not listen to him when FÃ«anor was present. As for the council, I suppose he didn't feel all to happy discussing his brother's acts before the council. I can understand one would want to discuss such things with one's father in private. It's what I would do.

i dont think it was a council matter either! All Finglofin was saying was hey my bros been a bit over the top maybe you should have a word. It would of been dangerous judgeing Feanors mood to make it an official matter of the Noldor making it look like Finglofin ment to userp the power of the Noldor even more

***RÃan*** · 05-05-2003, 04:06 PM

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Originally posted by Sween
I would personally verge on the side that thinks that the quote about not been able to make anything new a bit of a exgeration im sure dragons where an origional creation made only in an attempt to challenge the might of manwes Eagels

Yes, the dragons are 'original' in a sense, but they were made based on the eagles - like Melkor was saying 'geez, I hate those darn eagles! I bet I can make something even more powerful, tho!", then starts corrupting things to make the dragons - horrible caracatures of the noble eagles. I think Melkor was not too original - he was just good at copying/corrupting things.

***RÃan*** · 05-05-2003, 04:10 PM

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Originally posted by Sween
i dont think it was a council matter either! All Finglofin was saying was hey my bros been a bit over the top maybe you should have a word.

(Hey, I quoted Sween 2 times in a row!)

I agree - I think FÃ«anor overreacted in his suspicion (fueled by Melkor's lies).

What I really wonder about, 'tho, is why FinwÃ« didn't appear to do anything - he was, after all, King! and seemed to be respected by both sons. Why didn't he tell both FÃ«anor and Fingolfin to sit down, be quiet, and cool off, and then proceed to run a meeting?

Artanis · 05-05-2003, 05:11 PM

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Originally posted by RÃ*an
I thought I had read somewhere that Melkor's dragons were a copy/corruption of ManwÃ«'s Eagles - does that sound familiar to anyone?

Oh darn - this seems to be a topic anyway - no, it doesn't sound familiar. It doesn't sound likely to me, I think the dragons were too independent to be a product of Melkor. It's more tempting to think the dragons, and perhaps also the Eagles, were all in origin Maiar. Then dragons would be evil, independent spirits that chose to be in alliance with Melkor, much the same way as Ungoliant.

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What I really wonder about, 'tho, is why FinwÃ« didn't appear to do anything - he was, after all, King! and seemed to be respected by both sons. Why didn't he tell both FÃ«anor and Fingolfin to sit down, be quiet, and cool off, and then proceed to run a meeting?

Perhaps he knew his sons too well to do that. Restraining FÃ«anor was an art mastered only by Nerdanel, and not for ever.

Sheeana · 05-05-2003, 05:28 PM

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Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, the dragons are 'original' in a sense, but they were made based on the eagles - like Melkor was saying 'geez, I hate those darn eagles! I bet I can make something even more powerful, tho!", then starts corrupting things to make the dragons - horrible caracatures of the noble eagles. I think Melkor was not too original - he was just good at copying/corrupting things.

Well, there is that whole thing about how Morgoth was perpetually trying to attain entrance, so to speak, into Manwe's realm (air). Wasn't it in an earlier thread that this came up? His efforts to 'create' creatures that could fly?

Wayfarer · 05-05-2003, 05:55 PM

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It's more tempting to think the dragons, and perhaps also the Eagles, were all in origin Maiar.

The eagles are certainly /not/ (Read 'of aule and yavanna', it makes clear that the ents and the eagles were independent creations within ME and not spirits from outside it) and it is unlikely that dragons were either.

Artanis · 05-05-2003, 06:35 PM

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Originally posted by Wayfarer
The eagles are certainly /not/ (Read 'of aule and yavanna', it makes clear that the ents and the eagles were independent creations within ME and not spirits from outside it)

Well, the published Silmarillion at this point contradicts the AinulindalÃ« as it is written in HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring:

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But Manwe Sulimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of the West, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, which was the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the Seas. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the sea and could pierce the hidden caverns under the world, and their wings could bear them through the three regions of the firmament beyond the lights of heaven to the edge of Darkness.

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and it is unlikely that dragons were either.

Why is it unlikely?

Attalus · 05-05-2003, 08:52 PM

I have seen several theories on the origins of the Dragons, and I am not happy about any of them. The simplest, and probably correct one, IMHO, is that Tolkein just thought Dragons were dragons and there was no need to explain carefully about them like he did with the Balrogs. The second is the one just quoted, that they were Eagles corrupted. I don't care for that, as there is no mention that I can find of any capture of an Eagle by Morgoth. The third is the Maia-of -air one, and I have to admit that it makes the most sense, though, as I say, I am not happy about it. Or Ungoliant or the Watcher in the Water, either.

Maedhros · 05-05-2003, 11:47 PM

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Perhaps because he knew how much FinwÃ« loved FÃ«anor and feared maybe that FinwÃ« would not listen to him when FÃ«anor was present. As for the council, I suppose he didn't feel all to happy discussing his brother's acts before the council. I can understand one would want to discuss such things with one's father in private. It's what I would do.

That is a sad excuse. You should give the other part the opportunity to defend themselves. It's only fair.

05-04-2003, 04:46 PM	#1
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I agree, I don't think Morgoth had any hand in the creation of the Silmarils or in FÃ«anor's jewelmakingskills. But I remember reading somewhere (that's all I seem to do, don't I? I always remember reading something but never where. It's driving me spare! hey that rhymes... ) As I said I remember reading somewhere that later on, Morgoth often bragged about having taught FÃ«anor though in reality FÃ«anor hated him and would never have accepted any teaching of Morgoth. sigh I wish I'd remember where I read it. Not knowing where I saw it always makes me unsure whether I really read it or just imagined. __________________ We are not things.

05-04-2003, 05:03 PM	#3
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Yes! hugs Falagar Thank you! smacks herself on the forehead Oh man, that's from the chapter I reviewed myself only a few weeks ago! hides in the gloom under a rock in deep, deep shame I'm so ashamed of my self..... __________________ We are not things.

05-04-2003, 09:22 PM	#6
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	Blushes Thanks Maedhros, I was actually very nervous posting my introduction. That's interesting about Galadriel's phial. Did she actually make it, and if so did she learn it from Aule or Mathan? I don't suppose the phial would be made of the same materials as the Silmarils, so does that mean there are two (at least) kinds of material that can catch light? Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

05-05-2003, 08:52 PM	#19
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I have seen several theories on the origins of the Dragons, and I am not happy about any of them. The simplest, and probably correct one, IMHO, is that Tolkein just thought Dragons were dragons and there was no need to explain carefully about them like he did with the Balrogs. The second is the one just quoted, that they were Eagles corrupted. I don't care for that, as there is no mention that I can find of any capture of an Eagle by Morgoth. The third is the Maia-of -air one, and I have to admit that it makes the most sense, though, as I say, I am not happy about it. Or Ungoliant or the Watcher in the Water, either. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.