01-30-2007, 06:55 PM | #41 |
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Supposing that this 'agressive-nurturing difference' is defined genetically, then I think we're the wrong species the test that theory on either way. As a species, we mix genetical-defined behaviour a lot more with learned behaviour then most animals. Much of what makes us human is something we have learned from other people, which has much more different defining factors than our genetic inheritance. I think it's incredibly difficult -if not too difficult- to say that a tendency is natural or learned behaviour.
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01-30-2007, 07:53 PM | #42 |
Elf Lord
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This entire thread is so full of logical fallacies
that it's a challenge where to start.
But I'll start with Leif, since he's made himself so prominent. And I'll start with his sources. What is this "The Genetics Organization"? Doesn't come up on my Google, except for you. You can't (as has been pointed out) view the opinions of women in power as the same as the opinions of women voters. That's because most women vote for men. If women themselves don't insist on having women to represent them, the women elected are not representing women, do you see? They're representing their districts or other constituencies, and that's a different job. You can't even discuss the "personal aggressiveness" of elected women, except as you have a large sample size, tested for that. You don't have that, do you? If people who identify themselves as 'political scientists' are a branch, what is the original tree? Long on "political" and short on "science", if you, as their fruit, give any indication. However, you're not big enough a sample, so we'll have to hold that generalization for more data, as well. I'd like to see any original source on the Cuban Missile Crisis that compares Kennedy's response to that of a female. Fascinating reading, I feel sure. Show me a citation that demonstrates Republicans are young men. Average age of Republicans in Congress, maybe? changing topics... As for the need to keep women out of combat in Iraq, so their children won't be traumatised. Hum. I could point out that their children have, many of them, support systems featuring daycare providers that see them for more hours of consciousness than their mothers do. Or, I could take the approach of pointing out that the "poverty draft" means that their parents may have restricted choices about taking jobs that are entirely "safe and comfortable", even if non-military. Or, I could take the opportunity to mention that such nice considerations are pretty irrelevant for familes actually LIVING in war zones. Among which I might need to include Manhattan, depending on how things go. So many choices for debate. So little time. |
01-30-2007, 11:00 PM | #43 | |||
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Sisterandcousinandaunt: That was awesome. And welcome to the board. Feel free to have a go at any logical fallacies I may present.
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Or is there an "aggression gene" or something. According to Google, as Siscuzaunt found, there is no such thing as "The Genetics Organization". That doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist, but it is going to be hard to examine their publications if they aren't readily available on the internet. I know it seems we're picking on you Lief, but you are the only one here who seems to be arguing against women in federal politics. Are you seriously advocating the abscence of women in federal politics!? Inquiring minds want to know!
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01-31-2007, 02:38 AM | #44 |
Elf Lord
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I'm afraid I've run out of time to continue this debate. I may pick it up again at some future date, but for now, school is setting in hard and I can't any longer afford the time this is taking.
It has been fun . Thanks, everyone, for giving me a lot of intellectual stimulation for a long time! Sorry I don't have time currently for a last response. Maybe this weekend I'll be able to get in a final response. Or maybe not. Anyway, thanks again for the pleasure of discussing these issues with you all .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-31-2007 at 02:41 AM. |
01-31-2007, 05:13 AM | #45 | |
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01-31-2007, 05:21 AM | #46 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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*Tires skid to a halt.*
Before I go! My last post! I'm going to respond to everyone, and that will be that! And then you'll shoot all my arguments down while my back is turned . *Sniffles.* Go ahead . But anyway, I've got to get out of here. School is brutal. So my last post: Quote:
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Genetics often are influential in the formation of people's personalities. Them and upbringing and socialization, of course. But genetics are the part of the personality that isn't changable and is also very different (as I have produced evidence already from many sources to support) in a man than it is in a woman. Quote:
I wasn't taught about women in politics specifically being generally more nurturing than men. But there is a lot of evidence I have already produced on this thread that women are genetically less aggressive and more nurturing than men, so if that is, as the evidence suggests, a genetic trait throughout the vast majority of women, then it logically would influence women in politics too. Quote:
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There are several statistics on the page I've just linked, from the same source, that help to better illustrate my point. Here's an additional interesting bit: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-31-2007 at 05:24 AM. |
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01-31-2007, 05:25 AM | #47 | |||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Comparing the close resemblance to our species to that of primates, how the males tend to be more aggressive in most primates and the females more nurturing, also is a supporting evidence for this being a genetic trait. Quote:
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The main thing that's still holding me back from really believing fully that women shouldn't be allowed in politics is that there have been some glowing examples of marvelous female leaders. Just a few that I know of, but those few are so good that they make me very hesitant to finally decide that women shouldn't be in politics. Quote:
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Speaking of which, it has been great to meet you for the first time, Mari! Quote:
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But if you know of another branch of science that strongly disagrees with this one, please tell me about it. Quote:
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*Weeps.* That's the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me . . . thank-you! It has been good to meet you, sisterandcousinandaunt, and to everyone here, it has been a fun debate . Very intellectually stimulating. Thanks for making the thread, Nurvi; it has been both very interesting and very enjoyable!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-31-2007, 06:28 AM | #48 |
Elf Lord
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ere' before you leg off, Lief -
answer me this: where should women be then? |
01-31-2007, 11:27 AM | #49 |
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Here's a REAL male/female difference!
The situation: you're riding in your car, and [NAME] is sitting in the passenger seat talking to one of your friends on a cell phone. So when your friend asks [NAME] how you two liked his chili, you reply "it was horrible beyond belief" in a joking manner.
Now here's the crossroad: If [NAME] was your mom, instead of giving your reply to the friend on the phone, she would give you a sharp "George! How could you!" AS IF YOU REALLY MEANT IT! Of course, if it was your brother, he'd just convey the same sentiments as you over the phone and everyone would have a good laugh
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01-31-2007, 12:07 PM | #50 |
Elf Lord
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I don't get much time for this,
I'll have to respond in pieces.
First, The Gender Organization. Thank you for the link. The Gender Organization has no identity posted on its website, that I could find. Nothing like, "A research institution affiliated with Charing Cross Hospital" or such like. However, all the articles are copyright, and attributed to Jed Bland, so I looked for Jed Bland. Here is what he says of himself in a comment written to an organization concerned with access to facts. I have been engaged for the past ten years in researching the literature on gender and sexual dimorphism, independently of any academic institution. Consequently I have to pay for it myself. http://www.biomedcentral.com/openacc...ter=20040701jb I find references to him other places as an "activist," and ads for his books, which are concerned with transvestism and issues confronting transexuals. So. Here is what I ask myself. Should I be taking the evidence presented by Mr. Bland as fact, or not? Does my education and experience as a woman (doubtless longer than his, if he has any) enable me to evaluate these issues at least as well as he does? I believe it does. I believe that, however skilled his reading, and pure his intentions, his interpretations are subject to bias. http://www.gender.org.uk/derby/biblio.htm There IS such a thing as "science". It has all kinds of fussy rules about sample size, replicability, peer review, and test design, as well as some swell mathematics to evaluate it. It's been a long time since I looked at anything that necessitated a strong grasp of multivariate statistics, but I still remember enough to remember there were rules involved. Perhaps political "scientists", if they are getting above themselves, should, for the sake of the kind of grammatical nitpicking so dear to JRR himself, call themselves something different. Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 01-31-2007 at 03:19 PM. Reason: brevity |
01-31-2007, 12:13 PM | #51 | |
Elf Lord
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But that's not a gender difference.
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Are none of your friends female? Several of mine are, and I assure you, we are able to joke about cooking without any gender confusion at all. Too bad your mother isn't here so we could see how accurate your perception, in her case, would be. She might surprise you. Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 01-31-2007 at 03:18 PM. Reason: brevity |
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01-31-2007, 12:52 PM | #52 |
Elf Lord
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Maybe one of the problems here is that
people are fuzzy on the meaning of the word "genetic."
It is a "genetic" issue that you cannot cross a lion and an eagle and get a griffin. (However badly you want one) Humans have no gills. That is a genetic characteristic of humans. It is true of all finished humans. MOST humans have brown eyes. That is also a genetic characteristic of humans. But there are things, who experience themselves as human, who have blue eyes. How shall we categorize them? If you say, "The color of the eyes is not essential to the definition, humans may have eyes of several colors." then we can let the blue-eyed ones in, kwim? So. Leif claims (this is rhetorical, I don't have time or resources to chase down all his sources, but I'm suspicious) that "SOME women are ..." shall we say, passive? or "lack decisiveness" or some such? Therefore passiveness is a genetic characteristic of female humans. Therefore it is a characteristic of female politicians, even if they mask it by overcompensating to be overly aggressive. The premise does not demand the conclusion. It doesn't even really suggest it, as far as science permits us to evaluate it. The farthest we can go is to agree that, "More research would be necessary to evaluate this premise." Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 01-31-2007 at 03:18 PM. Reason: brevity |
01-31-2007, 12:58 PM | #53 | ||||
Elf Lord
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http://www.gender.org.uk/derby/index.htm But I'll stop responding now. I really don't have time, and I already sent my official last post . Quote:
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With all due respect, how much do you know about Political Science? Based on what (aside from me) do you criticize the profession? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-31-2007 at 01:00 PM. |
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01-31-2007, 01:01 PM | #54 |
Elf Lord
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Bother. This is so addictive. I really am trying to vanish!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
01-31-2007, 01:13 PM | #55 |
Elf Lord
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But I did look.
The Derby group is a self-help organization concerned with the problems of transvestites and transexuals... they publish small books and monographs. But Jed is their moving force.
I don't suppose that pointing out that I was a field associate for what was then "The Gay Rights National Lobby" before you were born would give me any credentials sufficient to evaluate Mr. Brand? Or that since long before THAT I've been a published writer. Or that I used to teach college statistics in the Suny system to evaluate math? Or that I'm an elected official now to evaluate political science? And you'd have to take my word for it, because this isn't an appropriate forum for posting my CV. I'm just tempermentally allergic to poorly evaluated sources. Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 01-31-2007 at 03:18 PM. Reason: brevity |
01-31-2007, 01:34 PM | #56 | |
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O come now, wasn't that bit of mine even the least bit funny?
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01-31-2007, 03:01 PM | #57 | |
Elf Lord
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I'll need your full name, the name of the college at which you were Statistics professor, and it would be helpful if you told me what class(es) you taught too. If you don't remember the classes because it being a long time ago, I can do without them, I expect. I'd also appreciate knowing what your position as elected official is, exactly, and where you're serving. With who would be helpful too, for me to know. And anything else you think may help me in double-checking your credentials. I'd also like it if you could give me details that would help me double-check your connection to "The Gay Rights National Lobby". Knowing what some of the books you've published are would also help. I'd appreciate this information very much . It is important information for us to know, since you are citing yourself in order to refute my case. Thanks! ~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-31-2007, 03:03 PM | #58 | |
Elf Lord
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Yes, it was.
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01-31-2007, 03:13 PM | #59 |
Elf Lord
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As I've said,
this wouldn't be an appropriate place to post my CV.
And maybe I'm a paperhanger from Dayton named Earl...how would you know? Although perhaps you are unaware, you have cited yourself as a source throughout this whole debate. You, and your understanding of "the political science branch." But you have no credentials that *I* recognise, so you'll have to show up with more in the way of actual fact than your general understanding (or misunderstanding) of things that you assure us are "common knowledge among political scientists". And, in all sincerity, we could agree that this was addictive. Hope you get your stuff done. |
01-31-2007, 06:33 PM | #60 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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If you don't want to provide any way of verifying your claims about yourself, please don't attempt to use yourself as evidence. If you did have a job as an elected official, with a job (conveniently relevant to discussion, as, apparently, is all your expertise) evaluating political science, I'd have thought you'd be aware of something this basic as regards citations. Yes, now I am suddenly shifting into accusation. I don't know you. But I have taken several political science classes, and you have demonstrated ignorance on certain points of political science that are the basics, taught in low levels of the profession. I can provide evidence for each of the claims I am about to make about political science, which you have demonstrated ignornance on. Quote:
This shows clearly that you haven't taken Political Science 180 or Political Science 110. This is a basic fact about the Political Science profession that is taught in low-level classes. I have already cited this fact from two Political Science textbooks. For instance, in "Essentials of American Government," the book says, "poll after poll reveals that women hold very different opinions from men on a variety of issues, as shown in Table 10.1. From the time that the earliest public opinion polls were taken, women have been found to hold more negative views about war and military intervention than do men . . ." This is a basic fact. You should have been fully acquainted with this basic fact I was presenting, if you were in a position to "evaluate political science," whatever job that specifically is, that you're referring to. Even if you knew about this basic fact and disagreed with it, because you are supposedly an evaluator, you would not portray it as "Lief claims" it is true, but would rather, understanding what the data is, state that even though the data says this, it is flawed for such and such reasons. Based on your expertise. Instead, you say that you are suspicious of my sources, which would be just absurd if you knew the first thing about Political Science. Quote:
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In The Essentials of American Government, Chapter 10, the political scientist goes over these things. This is the basics. There are other parts of your posts which indicate insincerity. In post 50, you say that "The Gender Organization has no identity posted on its website, that I could find. Nothing like, 'A research institution affiliated with Charing Cross Hospital' or such like. However, all the articles are copyright, and attributed to Jed Bland, so I looked for Jed Bland." In the rest of your post, you treated this as just one person talking by himself, based on his experience. Then, when I provided information that there was actually a company involved, you suddenly shifted your ground, saying, "But I did look. The Derby group is a self-help organization concerned with the problems of transvestites and transexuals... they publish small books and monographs. But Jed is their moving force." You never mentioned this in your original post. You only spoke of Jed, and you shifted your ground when I confronted you on it, claiming that you'd known what I was saying all the time. You also have said that Jed Bland is the moving force behind the group, something you provided no evidence for until, "I don't suppose that pointing out that I was a field associate for what was then 'The Gay Rights National Lobby' before you were born would give me any credentials sufficient to evaluate Mr. Brand?" Quote:
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Now, in addition: I have met some elected officials. I have also met professionals. I'm sure that several people here have. Now, when professionals and elected officials enter an argument about which they have personal expertise (take inked, for example), they tend to provide a great deal of data and information backing their position. Professionals are professionals because they know a lot, and they are analytical, intelligent thinkers. They provide evidence to back their position aside from simple personal experience, because having attained that position, they learned a lot on the way. So sisterandcousinandaunt, either you are not a politician, or you are the most ignorant one I have ever heard of. Your whole style and manner of approaching this debate had indicated the former. So I'm calling you a liar, unless you suddenly completely change your tune here and contribute real, professional data to the debate AND, most importantly, provide clear information from which we can verify your claims about your own identity. ~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-31-2007 at 07:44 PM. |
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