10-17-2004, 02:37 PM | #41 |
AngAdan
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I suspect there may be large numbers of Maiar who have expended much of the being in creation and have gone 'rustic' or 'native' in areas of Arda that they have worked on creating. They could easily pass as elves for a indefinite period of time.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
10-18-2004, 10:32 AM | #42 | |
Sapling
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10-18-2004, 04:08 PM | #43 |
Elentári
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I think there are deffinately still Maiar left in ME. It is said in Sil that there were so many Maiar that not even the Valar knew their numbers. I find it highly unlikely that none of them remain in ME. After all, they all have their own jobs to do, who knows what might go wrong if they all simply leave?
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10-18-2004, 05:00 PM | #44 | |
Elf Lord
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I thin the Valaquenta is from the point of view of the Elves. |
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10-18-2004, 09:46 PM | #45 |
King of Nargothrond
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Well I believe I mentioned this in another place...but it is appropriate in this thread.
I do not believe that it is ever said who is the greatest of the maiar...however... Eonwe is called "the greatest in arms" of anyone in Arda... And Olorin is said to be the wisest of the maiar. Other than that we can say little...
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10-20-2004, 04:49 PM | #46 | |
Elentári
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11-30-2004, 01:12 PM | #47 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Why were the Balrog's created as Maiar? Were they originally good bacause I can't imagine a good Balrog.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
11-30-2004, 01:35 PM | #48 |
avocatus diaboli
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TD, technically speaking, weren't Melkor and Sauron originally good?
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11-30-2004, 02:12 PM | #49 |
The Insufferable
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Yes.
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12-05-2004, 09:22 AM | #50 |
Elentári
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I do not believe Melkor was ever good, he just wasn't quite so evil at the beginning.
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12-05-2004, 09:28 AM | #51 | |
Elentári
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12-14-2004, 04:01 PM | #52 |
Elf Lord
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Concerning the Idea that Bombadil and Goldberry are "guardian spirits", One wonders how such a situation could come about...
If only Eru can create rational independent beings.... Then he must have been adding to the story in some way... It does however remind me of a similar problem with Ungolient. She certainly isn't a vala, and I've never been sure she was a maia. She was said to have originated when Melkor first looked upon Arda and lusted after it (or some such). That makes me wonder about the origin of such indeterminate creatures and strong emotions. It's almost as if Eru was granting life of it's own to an idea of sufficient strength. I wonder if Yavanna could have had a similar episode at some point in the past... It almost reminds me of Athena springing from the head of Zeus...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
12-15-2004, 04:07 PM | #53 |
Elentári
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That's a very interesting theory, I like it. Though I'm not sure. Aule couldn't make Dwarves into real beings without Eru's help, and I'm sure that he had very strong emotions concerning them. Unless you mean that Eru supported them. ?
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12-15-2004, 04:24 PM | #54 |
Elf Lord
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Err. Well you kind of have to look at it from two perspectives. In the music, the Ainur sang the theme that Eru proposed, and later Eru made it manifest. Certainly at least some of the Ainur elaborated on the theme (Melkor for an obvious example), and there was interaction between different parts of the theme...
One can only assume that Aule was singing something about dwarves in there... and being a smithy sort of guy, I suppose hammering them out in a workshop is probably how he envisioned it... Yavanna certainly didn't bring the ents into being by building them from scratch. They were there sleeping, all along it seems. So it would seem that in a couple of cases at least, the method of an origin of a.."species"... is related to whoever it was that wove it into the music.... It makes me wonder if Bombadil was in the music all along, or if he was one of the "surprises"... There is of course no mention of which Vala he would have held in reverence. He was the master of himself after all... The same with Ungolient. Was she in fact Melkor's Lust for Arda made manifest? If so, it's a neat little side story that Melkor's own lust almost consumed him... Oh wait it did, just not in that way...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 12-15-2004 at 04:30 PM. |
12-15-2004, 04:29 PM | #55 |
Tolkien-aholic
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that is interesting... the Istari are Maiar i believe
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12-15-2004, 04:35 PM | #56 |
Elf Lord
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Yes... they were maia... But they were also ainur, which means that they were there in the begining also, during the first music...
Not so Tom Bombadil or Ungolient, unless you posit that they were of the Ainur (either Vala or Maia). Which doesn't seem likely for lots of different reasons...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
12-15-2004, 07:55 PM | #57 |
Elven Warrior
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maiar werent ainur. the maiar were lesser than the ainur. its the valar who were ainur
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Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland |
12-15-2004, 09:12 PM | #58 | |||
avocatus diaboli
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Um... nothing more to add until I read through this thread...
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Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 12-15-2004 at 09:14 PM. |
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12-16-2004, 12:14 AM | #59 | |
Elf Lord
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Which is one of the reasons I don't lean towards Ungolient being a fallen maia... The only reference to her origin we have is definately after the creation of Arda...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 12-16-2004 at 12:17 AM. Reason: I can't frigging spell |
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12-16-2004, 02:38 AM | #60 | |
avocatus diaboli
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Though I think I'm beginning to lean towards the idea of her as something of a symbol, and idea made manifest... I remembered the ideas we were discussing in the Evil in ME thread, especially that of true evil really not existing and being nothing more than an emptiness (severely paraphrased) when I looked at the line, "...to feed her emptiness." If she's not a representation of Morgoth's lust, perhaps she could be one of the evil he created (since according to legend at least he corrupted her and then she spurned him and became her own mistress), something that was beyond his control and would in the end destroy him...
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