Should everyone of legal age be allowed to vote?

[BeardofPants]

See, I don't think a person should be able to vote while they're in jail, but once they've served their time, I don't think they should have the vote with-held from them.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

I think that not only should everyone of legal age be allowed to vote, but that the voting age should be lowered to 16, obviously I can't speak for situations abroad, but in UK, most people lose the interest in politics by the time they are 20, and certainly anyone over 25 is completely apathetic toward politics. People feel that they can not change anything, so why bother trying?

(short, concise and to the point! )

[Nurvingiel]

I agree Chrys. At the very least the voting age should be lowered to 16 in Canada as well. When you're 16 you can have a job. So you pay taxes. And yet you can't choose your leader? I think that's wrong.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

this is nicely topical in this country at the moment, so yeh, 16? bump

i am against different ages for different things, too at current in uk:

buy cigarettes - 16
smoke with parental permission - 14
buy alcohol/drink in a public place - 18
drink in own home - 5
drive powered bike (under 50CC) - 16
drive motor car - 17
vote - 18
pay taxes - 16
heterosexual sex - 16
homosexual sex - 18
marry with parental consent (or without in scotland) - 16
marry without parental consent (england only) - 18

i fiond this fragmentation stupid

[Draken]

Yeah but, no but, ah but... if I was in charge:

buy cigarettes - 16
Allow anyone minded to smoke to buy tabs as early as possible, increasing the chances of removing them from the gene pool

smoke with parental permission - 14
See above

buy alcohol/drink in a public place - 18
Insert the phrase 'for me' and allow at any age

drink in own home - 5
No, I usually don't start until 6:30

drive powered bike (under 50CC) - 16
Note that wannabe Mod scooter riders should be run off the road at sight, regardless of age.

drive motor car - 17
Except in Durham. Walk you lazy student *******s!

vote - 18
Yeah whatever

pay taxes - 16
Impose a 'Responsible For Singles Chart' tax exclusively for 12-16 year olds.

heterosexual sex - 16
With 32 year old women who wander up and down the High Street pushing their grandchildren in baby buggies eligible for a special free 'Chav Saga' weekend in Southend.

homosexual sex - 18
Lesbian sex to only be allowed between attractive partners and within sight of me.

marry with parental consent (or without in scotland) - 16
Assuming the parents can be tracked down, that is

marry without parental consent (england only) - 18
Grounds for sectioning under the Mental Health Act

[Nurvingiel]

lol Draken. Ah, so you're responsible for all that division...


In the Religion thread, EarthBound, Elvellyn and I got talking about the voting age. I think this is a good place to talk about it, even though the original topic was should people who already can vote be allowed to do so.

To recap from the other thread...

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

The government has logical reasons and thought-out beliefs to not allow children and teens the right to vote. Personally, I think it's still discrimination, and wrong.

Originally Posted by EarthBound

Kids already have enough to worry about, eh? I don't think kids should have a vote, but that doesn't mean there isn’t a barge full of discerning teenagers out there that definitely can think for themselves and make mature voting decisions.....if only life were perfect to account for everybody and their needs...sigh.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

[OTness]Yes, perhaps children shouldn't have to vote. But then, they should at least have the option. So should teens. Consider that when I was 17, I really, really wanted to vote in the provincial election. Like many British Columbians, I was embarrassed and infuriated by the recent scandals of the government. Happily, the opposition party offered a great alternative and a good candidate (before they changed the electoral boundaries on me anyway). But I was too young to vote! WTF!? I had had a job and paid taxes. Should I not have gotten a say in how they were spent?
Anyway, the party I was cheering for won overwhelmingly. They won 77 of 79 seats, the largest majority in history.

Originally Posted by Elvellyn

As far as children/teens voting,it is important to understand that voting is a responsibility. You can't have government officials going around interviewing 11 year olds to see if they are mature enough to handle the responsibility of voting (well I suppose it is possible, just not practical.) So they have to set a standard for everyone to follow. The sad thing is there are probably some 15 year olds who would be more informed voters that some 20 year olds. But regardless, it's not really discrimination.

This is a very good point Elvellyn, and it deserves a quality response.

If voting is a priviledge granted by maturity level, and we (as Elvellyn accurately pointed out) can't determine someone's maturity level from age alone, then maybe we should find another way to grant this priviledge.

I suggest lowering the voting age to 16, because if you can have a job, thereby paying taxes, you should have some say in how these taxes are used. Whether or not you excercise this priviledge is up to you.

Also consider that I was very interested in politics when I was 17 as I mentioned before. But I was too young to vote in the provincial election - the provincial voting age is 18. Last year, when I was 20, I had a summer job very far from my usual address, and you have to vote in your home riding. I knew that you had to mail in your ballot, but the procedure was more complex than I thought, and not that obvious, and I was too late. Now this year, I missed one of the most exciting elections in BC history! For the first time in quite a long time, the government was re-elected!
This is momentous - previous governments had embarassed themselves with scandals so badly, that enraged British Columbians voted in the opposition. I give credit to the Liberals (the now re-elected government) for avoiding scandal, but I'm not forgeting that they got rid of photo-radar (effective speed traps) and had a referendum on the Treaty process that was wrong on so many levels.
Okay, maybe I do still care about politics. But every major election I miss, my political zest dims. I have missed each one because I was either too young or a student. I fail to see how a voting age of 18 or 19 doesn't discriminate against young people.

[Insidious Rex]

I think theres some validity to the argument that kids may be more likely to vote at 16 when they are pretty much still in school and stable then at 18 when they are transitioning into higher education and moving away from home or jumping into a full time job or the military or something like that. So perhaps having it at 16 would build better voting habits then having it start right when they are least likely to vote.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

over here, people are most interested in politics at about 15, and they have generally lost that by the time they reach 18 and able to vote, from what i have seen, obviously i am an exception to that rule, being heavily interested in politics

[HOBBIT]

18 is an ideal age - when you are considered an adult legally andgain all those privleges (except for drinking,which is 21).


16 is definitely too young. Maybe there are many 16 year olds with a heavy interest in politics where you guys come from, but from what I see, that is very rare.

Generalization time: 16 year olds know little about what is going on in politics. Primarily, they would vote for who their parents are voting for, the party their parents are.

Kids often just become the same party, vote for the same people.

At 18 - you are more mature, can make up more of your own mind.


You think a 16 year old really takes a look at the issues and gets to know candidates? No way. Too busy with being a kid and school.

Many of my teachers over the years have asked the kids in my class questions such as who are our senators? Not many knew both of them (let alone 1...and this was in an honors history class).


18 really is a good age. best time to start making up their mind, finished or will finish high school. can drive themselves to vote (16 year olds would have to have their parents drive them.... :P).


Let the adults vote.

[Elvellyn]

I suppose that's the fault of democracy. It's government for the people, by the people. All the people. Even the stupid ones you don't like.

The problem is that you can't let all 16 year olds vote because most of them really aren't ready. Yet it's also not really fair to make the ones who are have to wait. I don't like the system but I can't think of any way to change it. I would sacrifice my vote to keep some of my classmaes from voting.

[HOBBIT]

You would find that a huge majority of 16 year olds "aren't ready to vote." You admit that most "aren't ready" - so how would you determine the select few that can? How is that fair? It isn't and wouldn't work.

That is why legally they can't! That is why you have to be 18.

How would you determine who can and cannot vote? Simple - anyone can after they turn 18. Sure, maybe you don't feel that they should vote but it is fair to all.


Why should minors be able to vote?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

erm, you are an adult at 16 in the UK, you finish school at 16, can drive a moped at 16 (OK so you have to wait to 17 to drive a car and 18 for alcohol) you can get married at 16, you have to pay taxes at 16, and it is most common for most 15-18 year olds to be more interested in politics than by the time they are 18-21 years old

[Elvellyn]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

You would find that a huge majority of 16 year olds "aren't ready to vote." You admit that most "aren't ready" - so how would you determine the select few that can? How is that fair? It isn't and wouldn't work.

That is why legally they can't! That is why you have to be 18.

How would you determine who can and cannot vote? Simple - anyone can after they turn 18. Sure, maybe you don't feel that they should vote but it is fair to all.


Why should minors be able to vote?

That's more or less what I was trying to say. There's no way that you can say "I'm sorry, you aren't as politically informed as your twin brother, so he can vote and you can't". Now the 16 year olds (or 15 year olds in my case) who would be informed voters don't really like that, but I am willing to concede that there is no other way to do it.

I don't live in Britain, but I will say it seems kind of ridiculous to be making your own living and paying taxes and not be able to vote. The whole "taxation without representation" thing.

[Insidious Rex]

Well you cant really use the argument that 16 year olds are clueless so they shouldnt be allowed to vote. I know plenty of 26 and 36 and 46 year olds who are equally as clueless and scary and yet they can vote. Many dont though. Or if they do they vote for stupid reasons. Now Im guessing most 16 year olds who could care less and are clueless wont bother voting. So whats the harm in letting those that DO want to and have a clue vote by saying ANY 16 year old can vote. Its not like youd suddenly have millions of the video game playing skate board riding pot head types rushing out saying oh yes I really do want to take time to actually vote. No they wouldnt bother. They would therefore voluntarily segregate themselves. Which is how it works anyway. Even with older folks. Look at our voting percentages some time...

[HOBBIT]

Again - where do you guys come from? :P The most clueless age group is under 18 IMO.

Of course you have "stupid" and uninformed, clueless, dont care ppl who can vote but don't.

Yeah, if 16 and up were allowed to vote a lot wouldn't be bothered in most elections.


But think about it - the added votes of 16 AND 17 year olds is big. And they may nto care about many small "dog catcher" elections, but a lot would probably vote in Presedential and other important races.


It could be enough to swing an election.


But then why allow 16 year olds to vote? There is no reason for it. If 16, why not 15? It is ridiculous. Much easier to let 18 year olds do it - when that is when everyone (in USA) is legally an adult.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

But then why allow 16 year olds to vote? There is no reason for it.

Because 16 year olds can hold jobs. Therefore not being allowed to vote is basic taxation without representation. Simple.

[HOBBIT]

yes, but so can a 15 year old.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

however, in the uk it should be 16, as that is when you are legally an adult in this country, except for two things, voting and alcohol both happen at 18, everything else is 16 or below

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

yes, but so can a 15 year old.

Then the voting age should be 15 IMO. I agree with IRex - if immature, uninformed adults can vote, why can't immature, uninformed teenagers vote?

If you really wanted to have voting only for the mature and/or informed, you would have to somehow test people on this, like Afro-elf originally proposed. I don't think this is feasable, or fair. It misses the point of democracy - everyone deserves representation. (Even if they don't agree with me. )

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

I think that not only should everyone of legal age be allowed to vote, but that the voting age should be lowered to 16, obviously I can't speak for situations abroad, but in UK, most people lose the interest in politics by the time they are 20, and certainly anyone over 25 is completely apathetic toward politics. People feel that they can not change anything, so why bother trying?

This is a great argument for keeping voting ages the same! If the younger crowd thinks they can change things, they're obviously irrational!

As far as teens working at 16 - as Hobbit pointed out, they can work at 15, also, so why not change the voting age to 15? I think the difference between working 16-year-olds and working 18-year-olds is that the 16 yr-olds are usually still in school and being supported by their parents, so they don't have as important a need to vote. I think 18 is a reasonable age - we have to make some type of standard that is practical, and this seems a reasonable one.