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01-17-2009, 10:46 AM | #41 | ||||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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hmmmmm.....
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It shows not just that a common origin was possible but that it was a fact.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-17-2009, 01:39 PM | #42 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Besides, Christianity has been firmly established in Ireland by then, so retelling Jewish history in a book is hardly out of the ordinary. Not to mention that Christianity has always had had a thing to use and/or warp existing historical and mythological stories and elements for their own purpose. So just because the writer adapted Irish history to his liking to have as much parallels to the Jewish history as he wanted, does not make this in any way accurate, especially not if other sources or material contradicts. Have you read that Wikipedia article or read further? Especially the article on Lebor Gabála Érenn contains some critical views of its accuracy that I think you should not ignore. For example: Quote:
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I find it somewhat amusing you'd use the Scythians as a vehicle to transport the jewish people to European kingship all around (I can think of at least two instances of bad research that would lead to such a conclusion) and it kind of effectively kills any chance you had to link Futhark (of which existing evidence rather suggests it is Germanic in origin, not Gaelic) to Hebrew. You see, the Scythians had no known writing system of their own... So according to your theory, you would have Isrealites using Hebrew morph into Scythians with no own writing, morph into Gaels who then adopted the Germanic Furthark that happens to have a few similarities to Hebrew, but that's just because they were secretely Israelites all along? Hm... No, if I were you, I'd just forget about this whole idea, it's just too shoddily researched and supported. I suppose my main gripe with considering the Judaic history as main source for Tolkien's world-building is that Tolkien was a great scholar, one who knew a lot of several different European mythologies. I'm sure there are parallels, intended or not. But I think Tolkien drew on far more sources than that and to ignore this is to sell him short. What about parallels between the Dunedain kingdoms and the two Roman empires? You could do a lot with that comparion. And what about Tolkien's clearly Edda-inspired Dwarves?
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01-17-2009, 06:42 PM | #43 |
Enting
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It's amazing I never thought about this until now. Israel is quite a close parallel with the Dunedain scenario. Being Jewish myself, it almost makes me feel like I am a descendant of the Dunedain! But however I'm not! Here I'm just member # 8209.
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Yes yes, so what to write here! Well nobody looks at these things, and it's very unlikely that I'll produce anything that original. So I may as well write something either way since it doesn't matter! La la, lalalalala! La la laaaaaaaa, lalalalalalaaaaaa! |
01-20-2009, 06:57 PM | #44 | |||||||||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
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However, that is why this information is presented with the video clips. I am only interested in the lineage from the Scythians since that is the only part that I can verify academically elsewere, ie the clips. I notice you keep bringing up the books and not the vids, makes no sense you attempt to debate me on something when you have not looked all the evidence provided. Quote:
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While I do believe that there were other influences on the dunedain kingdoms creation, I do not think the roman empire is one of them, I could not do alot with that comparison because it is not true. Besides the thread is "Christian and Jewish influences in Tolkien's work." There are far more similarities with the Kingdoms of Israel than the romans, period. I had never even mentioned dwarves but I have mentioned specifically, the Dunedain.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-20-2009, 08:58 PM | #45 |
Word Santa Claus
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Tel -
I commend you to Andrew Hadfield's article in Irish Historical Studies, "Briton and Scythian: Tudor Representations of Irish Origins". Vol. 28, No. 112 (1993), pp. 390-408 He traces the idea of Scythian origins for the Irish (Gaelic to the core) to 1571 and the Chronicle of Ireland, as a story mixed up in Arthurian legend and a desire by the "civilized" British to cast the Irish as Scythian and thus barbaric. He then follows it back to the Romans, Diodorus Sicilius who relates that the Irish are like the barbaric Scythians in being cannibals and Strabo who explicitly stated that cannibalism was practiced by the Irish and "the Scythians also;" both authors distinguished Scythians and Irish however. Edmund Spenser (and Hanmer, the author of the above-mentioned Chronicle) tried to hammer this into a Scythian origin for the Irish, again to barbarize them. Fundamentally, it is based on (quoting Spenser) the idea that "as Scythians are to Greeks, and wild men are to the civil, so are the Irish to the English." It also appears in some 12th century chroniclers' work more obliquely, but for the same reason. And as Hadfield concludes "the material used to make this case [for the barbarism of the Irish via the Scythians] seems to demonstrate that when writing about Ireland, English historians and politicians will often believe almost anything."
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01-20-2009, 09:12 PM | #46 |
Word Santa Claus
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Further: from the American Journal of Archaeology, vol 49, no 4 (1945) p 586
Treating the issue of the Scythian origin of the Gaels, the reviewer remarks "the story is unknown to the really ancient Irish texts" [NB: this is what Earniel meant by counseling you against reliance on medieval texts for ancient history. They are often inconsistent with earlier texts AND later texts, and given the absolute lack of archaeological or historiographical discipline in the medieval period there is no reason to take them at face value against texts either more thoroughly vetted by modern standards or written closer to the event]. Furthermore, he states that "it is believed to form not so much a piece of genuine folklore as a late attempt to connect Ireland with the ancient Mediterranean world." The most recent peer-reviewed article my searches in the JSTOR archive can retrieve that treats this hypothesis with anything but extreme doubt (if not outright disbelief) is from 1918 in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 48, pp. 155-178, and even that source hedges its bets. Anthrosource provides nothing on the topic.
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01-20-2009, 10:56 PM | #47 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Not relivant
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-21-2009, 12:33 AM | #48 |
Word Santa Claus
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You see, the reason I focused on the Irish-Scythian connection is because that's the only one discussed in any peer-reviewed literature I could find.
The Celtic record is pretty good, archaeologically speaking, and even more importantly, so is the evidence that there was no major migration from the East Med basin to Western Europe during the right time. Add to that that the language the Scythians spoke was from a distinctly different branch of Indo-European from all the languages of Europe (it's much closer to Avestan or Farsi than to Gaelic, German, Frisian, Danish, English, etc all of which are relatively close relatives in comparison).
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01-21-2009, 02:08 PM | #49 | ||||||
Word Santa Claus
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There's just too much evidence about the populations and cultural changes in the locations you're citing, none of which backs up this overbroad idea of Israelite influence on everything.
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01-21-2009, 09:01 PM | #50 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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01-22-2009, 02:11 PM | #51 | |||||||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
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Thank you comfect *big grin*
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Gamal Abdul Nasser, who was the president of the United Arab Republic said in 1956: ‘I could not respect the present Jews because they left Israel black and came back white.’ Quote:
I answered this already, here, and here. A quote from the latter link above: "Expulsion of the Jews from Sicily: I came to this revelation after reading the article, Expulsion of the Jews from Sicily given above. The article said that the jews were expelled from italy in 1492. I wondered at this year because I remember some significants. 1492 was there in blue within the article so I clicked on it. 1492 is the year Columbus (the demon) came to the Americas...wow!!! (the events of that year are listed-must read). At the bottom of the article it talks about how the jews were waving to their former neighbors as they were taken away on "ships!!!!" (Duet. 28:68)" History is a lie ok, get over it. Would anyone go to such lengths to lie, oooh yeah. Quote:
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Psalm 83:16-17 16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish: Have any of those nations been put to shame yet and made to seek the name of god, no because it did not happen yet, it is prophecy, foretold in Isaiah to happen on the day of judgment. So Psalms 83:2-6 is talking about the overall relationship Israel had/has with these nations in a prophetic as well as historical way. Quote:
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Anglo-saxon means sons of Isaac. Why?
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-22-2009, 05:47 PM | #52 | |
Word Santa Claus
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Why would the (supposed) pillow of Jacob legitimize Scottish kings? Because they're Christian. Obviously.
I know the story of Jacob's ladder; he set the stone for a pillar and called it Beth-El (the house of God). What there are NOT is Jewish myths about that stone having been acquired or taken by anyone else, least of all to Scotland, or about any legitimizing power it had over anything or anyone. As for the meaning of Scot, OED: Quote:
The Moabites are not the Chinese. They are the people of Moab. It's a region around the Dead Sea. Edom is due south of it overlapping the Negev. Both kingdoms HAVE been destroyed (not that I think the Bible is always accurate or prophetic, but this is one point on which it is correct). Of course 1492 is the year the Jews were expelled (from Sicily and from other Aragonese and Castilian provinces). The very reason Columbus was able to go on his voyage (which post-dates the expulsion) was because of the victory in Grenada and the Christianization of Spain (involving the expulsion or conversion by force of both Jews and Muslims). And how else would you leave Sicily but by ship? Boat I guess. The history of the Sephardim is well known (they could write, you know). I never denied there were black slaves in Spain by 1492. Many. In fact, the article I cited speaks of the slave trade in a period beginning in 1482, ten years earlier, that was already well-established bringing in black slaves. The issue is that these were not Jews, they were a distinct population speaking their own, non-Semitic, languages with their own culture and their own history. Not Jews, ex-Jews, or forgotten Jews. Also, the Zulu are from far Southern Africa, Shaka dates from the 17-1800s, and they have nothing to do with the Atlantic slave trade. Everyone was once black-skinned, because we came out of Africa. But the Jews are, and were, Semites. Just like the Egyptians (Nasser was talking about Europeanization with his white/black comments) (since the 'United Arab Republic' was Syria+Egypt). They aren't black. Hell, I might point to the Song of Songs: "My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand." Song of Songs 5-10. And that's probably all from me. You don't like peer-reviewed evidence, do you?
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01-22-2009, 08:18 PM | #53 | ||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
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You have not even addressed any of the scriptures that I brought out. Shaka Zulu is from 1700 so he nothing to do with the slave trade? They were still catching slaves 1860, *sigh*. And: Quote:
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. You are not getting away with "covering up the faces of the jugdes" ok, believe it, "the wages of sin is blood."
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-22-2009, 08:34 PM | #54 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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For one he was the ruler of the Zulu Kingdom, in the southern-most part of Africa, in a province now named KwaZulu-Natal in modern-day South Africa. The Zulus have no documented relationship of any kind with either the slave trade between the Atlantic coastlines of Africa and America/Europe, nor the slave trade of North Africa, nor the Indian Ocean slave-trade from modern-day Mozambique up to modern-day Somalia. In fact the area of present-day KwaZulu-Natal, still mostly populated by Zulus (an ethnic group in South Africa), was one of the last places that Europeans came into contact with. The Portuguese came across the coastline of the area on Christmas Day, thus Natal (Christmas in Portuguese). The slave-trade never had any substantial impact on this area of Africa, apart from later, but solely local Boer and British conquests in the latter half of the 19th century and onto the apartheid era of the 20th century. |
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01-22-2009, 08:42 PM | #55 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
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But yet you post no links to them.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
01-22-2009, 09:27 PM | #56 | |||||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
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Eh??????????
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And where is your references/links to your information. I am trying not to ignore you but I am not telling you again. I know you are young and may not have experience in research but I am not going to argue none points and poorly backed POVs; beneath me really. You want to know what is relevant to this thread. I am interested in hearing what you think about the black Icons that were repainted white in Russia, that's what has to do with this thread. I want to hear about the videos I posted about the knights of middle ages being black men. I want to hear about the arguments I presented stating the great lie that the moors were muslim africans and not black hebrew Israelites. That is what is relevant to this thread and showing that the European culture thus the works of JRRT is just the Israelite culture with another twist. That is relevant to this thread not running around in circles with no works cited, no links for me to varify, about issues that remotely have relevants hear, that was mentioned in passing, along the way to proving more significant points!!!! Quote:
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All I am going to say to you is that you have some nerve (Kahunas) to so eagerly go along with continuing to cover up the identity of the real Israelites who were taken into slavery. You are a braver man than I am because I could not do it, I am terrified of god. Good luck with that (not): read my signiture. Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. ...and I will whisper...no (hell no!!!)
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 01-22-2009 at 09:50 PM. Reason: replied to count comfect instead of coffee house |
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01-22-2009, 09:43 PM | #57 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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My only input in this debate has been about Shaka Zulu And I see that you've attributed my post to him in the form of a quote.. Re-read it! Last edited by Coffeehouse : 01-22-2009 at 09:44 PM. |
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01-22-2009, 09:47 PM | #58 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
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My bad
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did I answer your inquiry though?
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 01-22-2009 at 09:50 PM. |
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01-22-2009, 09:55 PM | #59 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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No problem! But I want to ask, where in the Shaka youtube clip you presented is the phrase "wandering Jews of Africa"? If you could give me the time it pops up I'll look at it.
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01-22-2009, 10:01 PM | #60 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
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Sure...
It's at 0:55, check it out.
__________________
Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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