09-02-2004, 10:25 PM | #41 |
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well people certainly seem to know their stuff here. Thansk everyone for niucley answering my question.
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09-12-2004, 01:46 AM | #42 | |||||
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I was browsing through I found that somehow I missed to respond on Earniel's posting, who was invested in time to contradict my humble suggestions.
I’m sorry for my inattentiveness , which is due to my preoccupation with other matters. Here I’m giving my POV on your response. Quote:
In this way, even knowing that your father was the last king on the line, you could never be sure that somebody from your distant relatives doesn’t have more right to succeed as the next Chieftan, a.k.a. the heir of Isildur. Quote:
Notice, that Argeleb, while claiming the lordship of Arnor, was ASSUMING that no descendants left in other realms. Rhydaur refused his lordship not because of the absence of the rightful heir to the throne. It said that “because Dunedain were few” the “power had been seized by evil lord of the Hillmen ”. You can’t SEIZE the kingship if it’s no king there , can‘t forcibly take the throne which nobody occupied. So the rightful king of Rhydaur and his family was among that “few” in the time of seizure, and possibly after that some of his family , escaping an oppression,” fled west”. The probability is very “thin”, but still gives us a venue for speculation. Quote:
Nowhere said that he wed Arwen being a virgin. Elrond might not know of what he was doing in his free time in Rohan or Gondor , besides, I don’t think that Aragorn had an urge to report to Elrond about his private life, since the biased elf-lord literally sent him to conquer unconquerable, a precedent in actions of Thingol of Doriath. Elrond was not concerned about an “unforgivable insult to Arwen“, because, considering odds against Aragorn, he wouldn’t see her as his own ears. Quote:
I was looking through the pages of the book , not really believing that that unmentioned heir will appear somewhere. And all of the sudden I got a goose bumps, because he DID appear! And his name is Halbarad. His sudden appearance brought Aragorn into ecstatic state.” Halbarad!…Of all joy this is least expected!”,“My thought have often turned to you”… You probably say that it doesn’t mean nothing. Just imagine the scene: the grim and weathered man running and embracing another man, saying to him that he constantly thinking about him and he is a joy which he dreamt about, but never expected. What would you think? Right! Look like this man has an alternative sexual orientation. I think that it caused a confusion among Rohan’s men also . But Aragorn explains, that Halbarad is his relative “of my own kin” , and everyone breathed a sign of relieve:” Well, they are just relatives…” Quote:
Maybe I am too dense, but I don’t understand what it has to do with his father longevity? . Last edited by Olmer : 12-11-2004 at 03:27 PM. |
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09-12-2004, 02:10 AM | #43 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-12-2004, 02:13 AM | #44 |
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okay Olmer I can swallow everything except for Halbarad. No offense but there is no way Halbarad. I cant dig up huge ntoes of files because I am obviously not as versed as you but I am going on gut instinct here. Tolkien would never have left taht out and not told us. THen we are saying aslo that Aragorn is a bad man because a good and just man would make his rightful son the king and not his other son to Arwen unless you are claiming wedlock on Halabarad but I dont evenm know if that would work. Also there has to be somewhere where it mentions Halbarads age. IO have very few of the books so please someone else find it. Also you are totally making assumptions based on very circumstantial evidence. Yes what yuoua re saying could be true but you might as well be saying hmm I found some feathers ona mans bed. He always looks at the sky. I have never seen him use an airplane and he is always ontime. he must have wings! btw I really like reading your ideas. They are very cool and I dont mean to sound hostile by this post. Please forgive anything that may sound hostile as what may sound hostile to you iseally extremely think sarcasm
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09-12-2004, 05:26 AM | #45 |
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ehem.... I dont think that Olmer claimed that... Halbarad was the son of Aragorn, or even a brother. He said that Halbarad was of closekinship with Aragorn. A Cousin perhaps!? I don't think that is too far fetched? Im sure after thousands of years one of the cheiftans on the Dunedain must have ahad more than one child! Perhpas Arathorn had a brother or sister!? I never thought of Halbarad as directly aligned with Elendil but now it does not seem so incredible. Think about it, if Aragorn feel and Halbarad was still alive... King Halbarad of Gondor and Arnor.... I think I like the sound of that.... haha! Seriously though, I am now thinking Halbarad may be of the line of Isildur! Also Halbarad of the Dunedain is not Aragorns son! Aragorn found Arwen in Lorien when he was young and remaind true to her till the end of his days, no way he had a child before seeing her!
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09-12-2004, 06:11 AM | #46 |
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I doubt it. If Halbarad was the heir of Isildur (after Aragorn) then surely he to would have abided in Rivendell so the line would be preserved.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 06:18 AM | #47 |
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It never says that he didn't abide in Imladris for a time. Even Aragorn withdrew from Imladris for long periods of time. He traveled Middle-Earth and even spent some time in Lorien! Im sure Halbarad did spend much time in Imladris as did many of the Dunedain. Someone has to be next in line if Aragorn fails right!? If you go far enough back someone would have been the rightful place keeper if Aragorn fell with no heir. Perhaps it was the Greatest of the Dunedain Halbarad!
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09-12-2004, 06:21 AM | #48 |
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Aragorn lived in Imladris and the only recorded journey that he took whilst still Estel was with the Sons of Elrond before Elrond told him his true anscestry. I'm sure if Halbarad did live in Imladris for a time then it would be said.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 06:25 AM | #49 |
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Why would it be said!? It would not be important unless Aragorn died heirless. I mean what would Tolkien had said? Somewhere in the Appendicies, "oh yeah and Halbarad was Aragorns Cousin... he lived in Imladris for a time and then he came to hsi kinsmans aide and then died on the feilds of pelannor." It wasn't neccessary to add any information on someone who dies so quickly and who is not important unless one of your main characters dies! Im not saying Halbarad as blood of Elendil is fact im just saying there is no better proof for it to be not true than it is to be... possible.
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09-12-2004, 06:27 AM | #50 |
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But surely Aragorn would have told Theoden, Eomer, Legolas and Gimli when Halbarad arrived.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 07:07 AM | #51 | |
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 09-12-2004 at 07:08 AM. |
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09-12-2004, 07:14 AM | #52 |
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aragorn did tell Gimli, Legolas, Theoden, Eomer, and everyone else that Halbarad is from his own house, one of his kin. In those days it wasn't important to say, this is my cousin, we grew up together in imladris and we like to eat crumpets with our noon tea. Aragorn said the information needed. Also perhaps it was a prtectionary tactic? When a leader is under threat the secondary leader is kept secret and safe so all is not lost, So similarly Halbarad may have been in "hiding" his true nature is not revealed to non elves and non dunedain?
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09-12-2004, 07:19 AM | #53 |
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He did not have to say that, but he would probably have said that he was the next heir of Isildur.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 07:48 AM | #54 | |
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I do not doubt that most chieftains (and earlier kings) had multiple children. However, the line of kingship always went to the oldest son... that's just the way it was. It doesn't mean that any others had any less of Isildur's genetic code than the king... but the one in line to be king held that station. In fact, after 38 or 39 generations, probably a good chunk of the surviving Dunedain were descended in some way from Valandil, Isildur's son (just do the math!). But only the next in line was considered the rightful king, and if something happened to him, there were generally laws of succession to determine who would follow. I wouldn't be surprised if most chieftains and kings had at least 2 or 3 sons... for 'insurance' if nothing else... and they likely had as many daughters as sons, over the course of time. However, I don't think there's any way Arathorn had other children - that would have been significant enough to mention. In the case of Halbarad, there are many ways he could be related to Aragorn - and only half are on his father's side. He could have been a first or second cousin, maybe once removed either way, from either side... or even a third cousin. He could have even been a later child of Dirhael and Ivorwen - an uncle to Aragorn, but perhaps of approximately the same age. They were apparently close friends as well as relatives - and I doubt there were other Dunedain children in Imladris. I suspect that when Aragorn first went into the wild, at age 20, that he first went to meet his own people, and traveled with a few of them initially. It was only a few years later that it says he went alone... so he obviously had companions at first. He didn't know Gandalf yet - so that pretty much leaves Elrond's sons or other Rangers. I suspect the former at first, but the latter after that, or together with the former. In those early years, he probably got to know his people and their ways, and formed close friendships with a few in particular, including Halbarad.
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09-12-2004, 10:38 AM | #55 | |||||||
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As for your last question, if his father had lived longer I doubt his lineage would have been kept a secret for Aragorn until he was 20. There would have been no need IMO.
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 09-12-2004 at 10:40 AM. |
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09-12-2004, 10:42 AM | #56 | ||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-12-2004, 11:15 AM | #57 | |
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09-12-2004, 11:53 AM | #58 | |
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09-12-2004, 01:20 PM | #59 |
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but lefty Aragorn met ARwen when he was extremely young and he remained faithful. He didnt spend any periods of time away from the sons of elrond or Elrond so they would have stopped him if he ever got the urge. Also Aragorn, as said before, was the highest ideal of what a human could be. he was honorable, brave, strong, courageous, and faithful to the one he loved. That makes me think he wouldnt have had other women/woman.
Also Olmer said -the heir to gondor- I could be mistaken but I always thought that when you would say Aragorn's heir you wouldnt mean the next of royal blood you meant his son. But i could be wrong. Wow this died for awhiel and now its coming back with a vengeance and I attributer the sucess to Olmer thanks Olmer.
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09-12-2004, 02:05 PM | #60 |
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Aragorn did spend time out of the Company of Elrond or his sons. They weren't with him on his ways to Gondor and Rohan. But I agree that Aragorn wouldn't have married Arwen if he already had a child.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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