12-17-2004, 12:33 PM | #41 | |
Elven Warrior
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Firstly, In Tale of Years it says of the jewel-smiths that (paraphrased): they reach the height of their power. Celebrimbor had reached the height of his skill. Why would he try and make more rings if all his thought went into the 3 elvish rings? ... and even if Celebrimbor wanted to make more rings (which is illogical) when would he have had the time and effort? Sauron, realising the elves perceived him through the One, used Plan B: to take the rings by force. This was only about a year or 2 later.
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12-17-2004, 01:28 PM | #42 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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My point exacly. I was saying that if they weren't the height of his power (which I've said they were) then he could have made others that weren't bound to the One.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
12-17-2004, 05:03 PM | #43 | |
Elf Lord
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Or, maybe I didn't understand well. |
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12-17-2004, 05:22 PM | #44 | |
avocatus diaboli
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Found it...
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Or you can believe that this statement means that this was the height of skill that they actually reached. It is undeniable that they did not get any better (since they were all killed), but this second interpretation simply states the obvious and makes no claim of what might have been. Am I correct in believing that you're following the second interpretation, RtB? IMO, the second makes more sense. In fact, I must say that there is something of a contradiction here. If they reach the height of power in 1500, why does it take an extra 90 years to make the Three Rings? In my mind, this indicates that by 1500 they had reached the point where they could make Rings of Power. Obviously though, these skills could still be refined and were still being refined 90 years later. I think it could be argued that had Sauron not made the One Ring ten years later, further refinement would still have been possible.
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12-17-2004, 05:47 PM | #45 | |
Elf Lord
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What you're saying afterwards, though, doesn't contradict their interpretation, as I see it. The fact that it takes them a lot of time to make the Rings doesn't turn the theory that it was their height of power wrong.. IMO it has nothing to do with it. |
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12-17-2004, 05:51 PM | #46 | |
avocatus diaboli
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Does that make sense?
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12-17-2004, 07:34 PM | #47 |
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
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maybe it just took time for them to make these rings. but I still think they could have made more powerful rings, if not Sauron had created the one. as I see it, Celebrimbor is not exhausted yet, not completely.
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12-18-2004, 05:11 AM | #48 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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It says Elven-Smiths, which indicates that it was more than one Elven-Smith that made the earlier Rings. Celebrimbor alone made the three and he was the most natural Smith their and probably the best. So the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, without Sauron's instuctions. The Nine and the Seven were made by more than one Elven-Smith, under the instuctions of Sauron who's thought was only in binding these Ring's with one more powerful one of his own.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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12-18-2004, 05:48 PM | #49 | |
Elf Lord
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Yeah, I understand you now Elemmire. Makes a lot of sense.
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Besides, I've always thought Celebrimbor used Sauron's "technics" when he made the Three - just that Sauron didn't actually touched/saw them. |
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12-18-2004, 09:54 PM | #50 | ||
avocatus diaboli
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An awful lot of arguing and assuming going on there, though... especially by me... Quote:
I'm not sure what TD is arguing here either... Perhaps that Celebrimbor should be counted as something separate from the "Elven-smiths"? Now there's an interesting idea...
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12-19-2004, 07:06 AM | #51 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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What I'm saying is that Celebrimbor was probably the mos talented of the Elven-Smiths (being the grandson of Fëanor).
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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12-19-2004, 05:54 PM | #52 | |
Elf Lord
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