Swedish referendum about the Euro

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Jonathan, I'm wondering, how many information did you get about the effects of the euro? I'm thinking, if you put such a decision into the hands of the public, surely they should have some knowledge of what they're voting for or against. I'm just asking because Belgium didn't organise a referendum, so I don't know how it's like.

The politicians have tried to enlighten people of both the advantages and disadvantages of the Euro. Information about the new currency has been available everywhere. So I guess that at the moment, the Swedish are those who know the most about the Euro

Though that didn't make them vote 'Yes' to introducing it

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Jonathan
The politicians have tried to enlighten people of both the advantages and disadvantages of the Euro. Information about the new currency has been available everywhere. So I guess that at the moment, the Swedish are those who know the most about the Euro

Though that didn't make them vote 'Yes' to introducing it

An informed vote is the best vote. Unfortunately, the people didn't want the euro, despite the information.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
An informed vote is the best vote. Unfortunately, the people didn't want the euro, despite the information.

People are swayed by a good presentation. Even if haivn the Euro is the best for the country - if the "No" voters had better commerciials or even a louder voice - it's easy to sway people. Also- nothing is better than to pull on people's heart strings about the loss of national identity.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Eärniel


It is quite an adaption, isn't it? I still have trouble dealing with the coins, so many tiny coins! Belgian frank-coins were much more different in appearance (and slightly larger and not so bloody numerous ). I still have to flip every coin lower than 20 cents to see how much it really is. I must admit I also still tend to think in franks a lot. It's a hard-to-break habit.

Quite so, the small ones have a tendency to accumulate in one’s wallet, don’t they? To small in size and value to be used frequently.

I must admit I also still tend to think in franks a lot. It's a hard-to-break habit.

Likewise, I got habituated to make the conversions and still find myself doing it for the larger amounts. On the other hand, a good number of shops here (not the majority) still post the prices in the old as well as the new currency, does that happens there too?

Originally posted by Fat middle
I'm sad for the results of the votes. Perhaps this was not the best momment to set the referendum. I think that several countries of the Euro-zone would say "no" if consulted these days. The policies of deficit that we're seeing in many countries are proof of that they're not convinced of the basis of the Euro.

Quite true, the obsession of the ECB with control of the inflation is exaggerated in my view; they should have considered a more flexible approach, to take in consideration the state of the Economy.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Quite so, the small ones have a tendency to accumulate in one’s wallet, don’t they? To small in size and value to be used frequently.

Am I glad that isn't just me. Since the euro I put all my coin money in another little purse because it doesn't fit in my wallet anymore. It's not that the smaller coins have too little value to be used frequently. It's more that I still don't have the skill enough to whip out my coin-wallet and produce the needed coins fast enough. I hate it that I have to keep a whole line of people waiting at the counter because I need to search for tiny coins. I prefer to pay with bank notes or and pieces of 1 and 2 euro. Of course that means more change in little coins and more accumulation. I'm doomed.

Likewise, I got habituated to make the conversions and still find myself doing it for the larger amounts. On the other hand, a good number of shops here (not the majority) still post the prices in the old as well as the new currency, does that happens there too?

Thinking in Belgian franks tends to give me a more secure feeling about worth. The smaller amounts are not that much of a problem but with large amounts in euros I tend to be very careful. I know what I can do with a certain amount of Belgian franks, but not always with a certain amount of euros. I'm sure I will be able to do so one day but I'm just a slow learner.

You won't find many dual prices here anymore. It's pretty much only prices in euro. I believe it's to make people rely on counting in euros faster. (And in some cases so you can't see that some shopkeepers took advantage of the euro to raise their prices )

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Sween
Im not sure if i would want it to vote in this country as bizzare as this sounds i feel its far too important an issue to decided by the whole country. i say this because the ignorance that sourounds this issue and how easy it would be for the 'No' side to mislead people!

I understand where you're coming from, Sween, but unfortunately that's not how democracy works. If you're going to let people make a decision, you have to let them make the wrong decision, or the whole process is worthless. You might as well say "electing a government is too big a decision for the general public to make; let's pick a dictator, and let him make all our decisions!" People have to have a say in government - even if you think they don't know what they're talking about

I'm rather surprised to discover I'm the only person here opposed to the Euro. Maybe I'm more uninformed than I thought . I'm against it for two reasons: I think it's completely unnecessary, and I don't like the way the debate has been presented in Britain. People opposed to the Euro (or the EU for that matter) are not ignorant racists, fighting a rearguard action against the forces of progress. The Euro is not inevitable, and Britain will cope just fine if we stay out of it. Also, this really isn't an economic argument - it's as political as they come. It's about sovereignty, and the ability of sovereign nations to make their own laws without being overridden by an outside body. The EU will become a federal organistion if it goes on as it has been doing, and I resent the British government pretending otherwise. And don't get me started on why a federal Europe is a bad idea! (btw, it's not because federalism is a bad idea. It works great in the US, but it wouldn't work here)

I'm pleased Sweden rejected the Euro. I hope it works out for them

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by sun-star
... (btw, it's not because federalism is a bad idea. It works great in the US, but it wouldn't work here)
....

The US is one unified nation. Although, when the US first became a nation, it was made up of independently governed states that more or less acted like separate countries. It is no longer like it was when the US was first 'born'. Although individual states still have their own laws, those laws can not overrule or supersede national laws.

Europe is many countries that happen to be next to each other.

I think a unified Europe (although, highly unlikely) would be a force to be reckoned with. However, I do not ever see that happening. I do not believe a common currency would ever change any of that.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Ruinel
The US is one unified nation. Although, when the US first became a nation, it was made up of independently governed states that more or less acted like separate countries. It is no longer like it was when the US was first 'born'. Although individual states still have their own laws, those laws can not overrule or supersede national laws.

I don't quite understand... Isn't it true that individual states can't override national laws, but neither can national government override regional laws? And that the two layers of government are autonomous and sovereignty is divided between them? I know the US is a unified nation, but isn't it a federal one?

Maybe I gave the impression I thought that was what it's like in Europe now. Sorry if I did! What I meant was, Europe's not a federal system but it could become one - and I don't want it to.

Europe is many countries that happen to be next to each other.

My thoughts exactly

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
I don't quite understand... Isn't it true that individual states can't override national laws, but neither can national government override regional laws? And that the two layers of government are autonomous and sovereignty is divided between them? I know the US is a unified nation, but isn't it a federal one?

The federal government of US is controlled by the Constitution. Anything not restricted or allowed in the Constitution is left up to the decision of the states. The states still have the majority of the power when it comes to laws. There are very few federal laws. The states control their school curriculum, control what restrictions they impose on abortion, states determine the majority of gun laws, states control their social programs, etc.

For instance - the recent stuff with the anti-sodomy laws. Very few states had laws against sodomy. This is contrary to many people's comments saying that they couldn't believe the United States outlawed it - since the US itself actually had NO laws regarding it whatsoever, the individual states did. It was taken to the supreme court and there they decided that it went against the Constitution and basically struck down ALL laws against sodomy.

Another example is the death penalty. That is a state decision. many states have the death penalty - many do not. It's not a federal decision. The only way they can truly prevent states from having a death penalty is if the Surpeme Court determines it goes against the Constitution's "cruel and unusual punishment" - which I do not think it does.

A third example is our drinking age. The federal government wanted to make the US drinking age 21 throughout the US. Before all states had different ages. The problem is - the federal government - didn't and still does NOT have any say in the drinking age. The only way they got the uniform drinking age was by threatening to cut off federal highway funding to any state which didn't raise it to 21.

By the way - anyone who had a problem with me responding can kiss my a$$.

As for the Euro - of course you will lose some sense of sovereinty. However the Euro has far more to do with economics and trade - than politcs. I do agree that the EU is on it's way to becoming a federal organization - more like the United States is. You're PMs in the future may become more like our state governors. Your parliaments - may become more like our state legislatures. I feel all this will be a while still and the EU overall will continue to be on the slow road (you have too much of sense of nationality for it to just be eliminated). It's taken roughly 30 years to work on the elimination of passports and a single currency.

As I stated before - Europe can learn a lot by how very different sovereign states, with different goals and a sense of individuality joined together to form a new country - by looking at the Constitutional debates and the way the US formed.

[Ruinel]

Thanks JD for answering for me. I was bogged down and couldn't get to it.

One thing, some social programs are federal (Food Stamps) and the laws for distribution (as well as the funding) comes directly from the federal government, though it is distributed through state agencies.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
People are swayed by a good presentation. Even if haivn the Euro is the best for the country - if the "No" voters had better commerciials or even a louder voice - it's easy to sway people.

That is exactly what I hate about modern politics!

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Am I glad that isn't just me. Since the euro I put all my coin money in another little purse because it doesn't fit in my wallet anymore. It's not that the smaller coins have too little value to be used frequently. It's more that I still don't have the skill enough to whip out my coin-wallet and produce the needed coins fast enough. I hate it that I have to keep a whole line of people waiting at the counter because I need to search for tiny coins. I prefer to pay with bank notes or and pieces of 1 and 2 euro. Of course that means more change in little coins and more accumulation. I'm doomed.



[/B]

So Earniel, never spend the coins. Always use a paper bill for purchases, empty your wallet of the accumulated coins of a night, then take this accumulated change to the bank, for deposit in your savings account every month. You'd be surprised at how the little bits of money add up!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lizra
That is exactly what I hate about modern politics!

Agree, and it's exactly why I'm glad that political commercials are not allowed here. Those dumbening TV-debates are more than enough.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by sun-star
I'm rather surprised to discover I'm the only person here opposed to the Euro.

I was opposed to it and I would have voted no if I had the chance. But for all the wrong reasons. So it may have been better the decision wasn't mine.

Originally posted by Lizra
So Earniel, never spend the coins. Always use a paper bill for purchases, empty your wallet of the accumulated coins of a night, then take this accumulated change to the bank, for deposit in your savings account every month. You'd be surprised at how the little bits of money add up!

I sort of do that, when my coin-wallet gets too heavy (you'd be surprised how much all those coins weigh!) I put the most of them a little dinosaur-shaped moneybox. When that's full I count it and take some of it to the bank.

Though it'd be very hard never to spend coins. Sometimes shops don't have enough coins to return on my bank-note and ask for coins. At least then I have an excuse to rummage in the coin-wallet and keep the line waiting.

[jerseydevil]

I was looking through an old Wired magazine yesterday and they had in there about the Euro. I don't know how this graphic will appear - but it does explain the different parts of the Euro.



Note that this article was magazine came out in January 2002. The Euro has gained against the dollar since then.