Why terrorists attack America

[jerseydevil]

Another thing -

You might find it interesting to think about - bin Ladin didn't care one single bit about Iraq and Hussein before the UN invasion, didn't care about the people - you really think they really care about them now?

People seriously need to get their heads out of the sand.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Just a note:

I do not support terrorists in any way, and I personally regard them as cowards of the highest order.

I am merely arguing the motives behind attacks, this being American interference in forign nations, and do not in any way advocate terrorism as an acceptable practice.

I enjoy debate, and feel this an issue worth examining, given world events, and am not trying to be offensive or flaming.

Fenir.

Actually - going by your posts, you seem to just think that the US is the absolute worse country in the world and basically deserves what it gets. Hope you say the same thing when France gets attacked, Germany and when every other western country that gets attacked.

[BeardofPants]

Oooh, I wonder what the record is for the amount of ' ' JD's used in his posts?

[jerseydevil]

By the way - to let everyone know - it was NOT the Kurds that were desimated by the Republican Guard and who were tryign to get to overthrow Hussein and who we "abandoned" - it was the Shia's in the south. That is why when the war started and even today - they question the US.

As punishment for their uprising - Hussein mascred many many Shia's and even damned up the rivers to dry out the wetlands as punishment (this region is felt to be the biblical home to the Garden of Eden). We have destroyed many of the and the people are returning and the wetlands are being restored.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Oooh, I wonder what the record is for the amount of ' ' JD's used in his posts?

Not enough for some of the one sided comments he was making.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Beor
The war here has been going on for centuries as well (correct me if I am wrong, Radagast the Brown), the Crusades were fought here to try to recalim the Holy Lands (which I think is Isreal (once again, RtB, correct me if I'm wrong)), and havent the various Muslim factions here been at eachothers throats for quite some time?

Actually the crusades were in response to muslims attacking and expanding through southern Europe, all the way to France's doorstep in Spain. The crusades were to drive them back and as a "side note" reclaim the holy lands. The time was very religious - and there was no better way to get citizens backing than to fight on the side of God.

But it is true that the violence in the Middle East has been going on for centuries. This is a fact that Britain either ignored or forgot when it arbitrarily created the modern Middle East. This is why the Kurds are divided between three nations, Iraq has three different groups who can't stand each other, and why there is so many problems in Kashmir.

[Sister Golden Hair]

It's about time you got your butt back here. Welcome back JD!!!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It's about time you got your butt back here. Welcome back JD!!!

Thanks. I see I have some catching up to do.

I find it funny how this person has come to a Tolkien board, posted three times and it is only in this thread which they started. I'm curious if it's an actual member who wanted to discuss this - without these posts reflecting on their "everyday" name.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Beor
And to continue your point, if I may, if you go out and ask most Iraqi's, they are happy that we are here, and they will tell you that we are helping them more than hurting them.

Here is an extensive poll that ABCNews, BBC, German Broadcasting company ARD, Japan's NHK, with field work done by Oxford Research International.

To read the full pdf report see - ABC NEWS POLL: IRAQ – WHERE THINGS STAND

Here is the ABC summary...

A Better Life
Poll: Most Iraqis Ambivalent About the War, But Not Its Results

March 15— A year after the bombs began to fall, Iraqis express ambivalence about the U.S.-led invasion of their country, but not about its effect: Most say their lives are going well and have improved since before the war, and expectations for the future are very high.

Worries exist — locally about joblessness, nationally about security — boosting desires for a "single strong leader," at least in the short term. Yet the first media-sponsored national public opinion poll in Iraq also finds a strikingly optimistic people, expressing growing interest in politics, broad rejection of political violence, rising trust in the Iraqi police and army and preference for an inclusive and democratic government.

More Iraqis say the United States was right than say it was wrong to lead the invasion, but by just 48 percent to 39 percent, with 13 percent expressing no opinion — hardly the unreserved welcome some U.S. policymakers had anticipated.

As many Iraqis say the war "humiliated" Iraq as say it "liberated" the country; more oppose than support the presence of coalition forces there now (although most also say they should stay for the time being); and relatively few express confidence in those forces, in the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority, or in the Iraqi Governing Council.

These results are from an ABCNEWS poll conducted among a random, representative sample of 2,737 Iraqis in face-to-face interviews across the country from Feb. 9-28. Part of ABC's weeklong series, Iraq: Where Things Stand, marking the first anniversary of the war, the poll was co-sponsored with ABC by the German broadcasting network ARD, the BBC and the NHK in Japan, with sampling and field work by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England.

The poll finds that 78 percent of Iraqis reject violence against coalition forces, although 17 percent — a sixth of the population — call such attacks "acceptable." One percent, for comparison, call it acceptable to attack members of the new Iraqi police.

There are huge differences in these and many other questions between Arab Iraqis, who account for 79 percent of the population, and the Kurdish minority (17 percent). Forty percent of Arabs say it was right for the United States to invade; that soars to 87 percent of Kurds. Just one-third of Arabs say the war liberated rather than humiliated Iraq; it's 82 percent of Kurds. Thirty percent of Arabs support the presence of coalition forces, again compared with 82 percent of Kurds. Positive views of the invasion also are held disproportionately in the south of the country, as well as in the Kurdish north.

U.S.-led invasion:
             All	Arabs	Kurds
Was right 	48% 	40% 	87%
Was wrong 	39 	46 	9
  	  	  	 
Liberated Iraq 	42% 	33% 	82%
Humiliated  	41 	48 	11
  	  	 	 
Presence of coalition forces:	 	 	 
Support 	39% 	30% 	82%
Oppose 	      51 	60 	12
  	  	 	 
Attacks on coalition forces:	 	 	 
Acceptable 	17% 	21% 	2%
Unacceptable 	78 	74 	96

Personal Lives
On a personal level, seven in 10 Iraqis say things overall are going well for them — a result that might surprise outsiders imagining the worst of life in Iraq today. Fifty-six percent say their lives are better now than before the war, compared with 19 percent who say things are worse (23 percent, the same). And the level of personal optimism is extraordinary: Seventy-one percent expect their lives to improve over the next year.

Again there are regional and ethnic differences. In the Kurdish north, 70 percent say their lives overall are better than before the war; in the south, 63 percent. That declines to 54 percent in the central region, and falls under half — to 46 percent — in the greater Baghdad area, home to more than a quarter of Iraqis.

 How Iraqis See Their Lives Overall
How things are going today:
         All	North	South	Central	Baghdad
Good 	70% 	85% 	65% 	70% 	67%
Bad 	29 	14 	34 	28 	32
Compared to a year ago, before the war:	 	 	 	 	 
Better 	56% 	70% 	63% 	54% 	46%
Same 	23 	15 	21 	22 	31
Worse 	19 	13 	13 	23 	23
How they'll be a year from now:	 	 	 	 	 
Better 	71% 	83% 	74% 	70% 	63%
Same 	9 	4 	6 	10 	16
Worse 	7 	1 	4 	9 	10

Locally, unhappiness is highest by far with the availability of jobs (69 percent say it's bad) and the supply of electricity (64 percent negative). Local schools are rated positively (by 72 percent), and smaller majorities give positive ratings to the availability of basic household goods and the adequacy of local crime protection. About half give positive ratings to the availability of medical care, clean water and household goods beyond the basics, and to local government.

Iraqis divide in their rating of the local security situation now, but strikingly, 54 percent say security where they live is better now than it was before the war. However, for some, local security clearly is a great concern; 22 percent call it the single biggest problem in their lives, more than any other mention ("no job" is second, 12 percent). Local security concerns peak in greater Baghdad, where they're cited by 36 percent as the top problem, compared to a low of 8 percent in Kurdistan.

Notably, across the country, no more than 26 percent say any of these conditions are worse now than a year ago; in each about four in 10 or more say things are better; and in each sizable majorities — mostly three-quarters — expect things to improve over the next 12 months.

There's political danger, of course, if these expectations go unmet.

Ratings of Specific Local Conditions
  	   Today 	   Compared to prewar 	     Expectations 1-yr.
  	       Good 	Bad 	Better 	Worse 	Same 	Better 	Worse 	Same
Schools 	72% 	26 	47% 	9 	41 	74 	3 	14
Househld bascs 	56 	41 	47 	16 	35 	76 	3 	10
Crime protectn 	53 	44 	50 	21 	26 	75 	4 	11
  	  	  	  	  	  	  	  	 
Medical care 	51 	47 	44 	16 	38 	75 	3 	12
Clean water 	50 	48 	41 	16 	40 	75 	4 	13
Local gov't 	50 	38 	44 	16 	29 	69 	4 	12
Additnal goods 	49 	46 	44 	17 	35 	75 	3 	10
Security 	49 	50 	54 	26 	18 	74 	5 	10
  	  	  	  	  	  	  	  	 
Electricity 	35 	64 	43 	23 	32 	74 	5 	11
Jobs 	26 	69 	39 	25 	31 	73 	4 	11

[jerseydevil]

Security

While less of a local issue for many Iraqis, security at the national level is a vast concern; the public's top overall priority, by a huge margin, is "regaining public security in the country." Sixty-four percent give it "first priority" for the next 12 months; out of a dozen issues tested, no other even breaks into double digits.

Combining first, second and third priorities produces a more complete list: Eighty-five percent mention security in one of those slots; 55 percent, rebuilding the infrastructure; 30 percent, holding national elections; 30 percent, "ensuring that people can make a decent living," and about as many, "reviving the economy." Last on the list: "Dealing with members of the previous government," cited as a priority by only 2 percent.

Go to website for table

Coalition Forces
As noted, 51 percent oppose the presence of coalition forces — but that doesn't mean most want them withdrawn immediately, likely because of security concerns. Fifteen percent of Iraqis say the forces should leave the country now; by contrast, 36 percent say they should remain until a new government is in place; 18 percent, until security is restored.

Go to website for table

Just over three-quarters of Iraqis — 77 percent — say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces. Those who've had such encounters divide on the experience: about half call it a positive encounter; half, negative.

Politics
Politically, the survey finds that Iraqis overwhelmingly want their nation to remain united and centralized — 79 percent say so, compared with 14 percent who prefer a federated group of regional states, and 4 percent who want the country broken into separate nations. Among Iraqi Kurds, federated regional states — but not fully independent ones — are preferred.

Go to website for table

There is relatively little support for a religious theocracy — it's low on the list of preferred forms of government.

In one change from the first national poll in Iraq by Oxford Research International last fall, more now call for a "single strong Iraqi leader" — 47 percent say one will be needed a year from now, up from 27 percent previously. That's more than say "an Iraqi democracy" will be needed, now 28 percent (essentially unchanged).

This interest in a strong leader (not necessarily an undemocratic one) seems based in security concerns. In an open-ended follow-up, references to "freedom" dominate support for democracy, while those who express support for a single strong leader are more apt to cite the need for security and order in their country.

Go to website for table

In another question, without a time frame mentioned, democracy wins more support than two other options — a strong leader, but one who rules "for life"; or an Islamic state. Forty-nine percent choose democracy, 28 percent a "strong leader" and 21 percent an Islamic state.

Go to website for table

As noted, more Iraqis express interest in politics — 54 percent, up from 39 percent in November — and 31 percent say their interest in politics has increased in the past year, three times the number who say it's decreased. Women are more apt than men to express interest in politics, though it's up among both groups.

Fragmentation
But other results suggest a level of political fragmentation that may challenge the country's political development, and throws into some question the notion of early elections. Despite interest in a strong leader, six in 10 Iraqis can't name a single national leader they trust (though even more can't name one they specifically mistrust).

Sixty-one percent express little or no trust in political parties, and nearly seven in 10 don't identify themselves with any party. The only parties that emerge with more than minimal support are either Islamist or Kurdish; respondents named more than 25 individual parties, but most had less than 1 percent support. (All were volunteered in response to an open-ended question.)

Go to website for table

Three-quarters say joining a political party is something they "would never, under any circumstances, do." Indeed, after decades of repression, more than a third, 36 percent, say that simply talking with other people about politics is something they would never do.

Go to website for table

Choices also are fragmented when Iraqis are asked which national leader they "trust the most" — more than 40 individual answers, each with few mentions. Only five received mentions from more than 3 percent:

• Ibrahim Al-Jaaferi, 8 percent (main spokesman for the Islamic Dawa Party);
• Massoud Barzani, 6 percent (leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party);
• Jalal Talabani, 6 percent (leader of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan);
• Sayyid Al-Sistani, 5 percent (the country's leading Shiite cleric, sometimes described as the most powerful man in Iraq); and
• Adnan Pachachi, 4 percent (foreign minister in the government deposed by Saddam Hussein in 1968, he founded the Independent Democratic Movement last month.)

One figure, meanwhile, was cited by 10 percent as a leader they "don't trust at all" — Ahmed Chalabi, former leader of the London-based Iraqi National Congress, now a member of the Iraqi Governing Council.

Trust
In terms of confidence in institutions, the gainers, as noted, are the Iraqi police — 68 percent express trust in it, up from 45 percent in November — and the Iraqi army, with 56 percent trust, up from 39 percent in the fall.

Confidence (not necessarily in political terms) peaks at 70 percent for "religious leaders." No other institutions receive majority trust; notable are the IGC, at 39 percent, the CPA, at 28 percent; and the U.S. and U.K. forces, at 25 percent.

Go to website for table

Model
Few Iraqis see non-Arab nations as a model for their country — just 6 percent cite the United States, 5 percent Japan — but many more want those nations to play a role in rebuilding Iraq. Among top mentions, 36 percent say the United States should play a role in rebuilding the country, 36 percent Japan, 22 percent the United Kingdom, 22 percent France, and 17 percent Germany.

Again in terms of a model for the country, 24 percent say it doesn't need one. The only other mention above single digits is the United Arab Emirates, a primarily Sunni federation of largely independent city-states (it was cited by 26 percent of Sunnis compared with 15 percent of Shia Muslims, but was top-ranked, by far, in both groups).

[jerseydevil]

Religion
In religious terms, 96 percent of Iraqis are Muslim. In this poll 40 percent identified themselves as Sunni Muslim, 33 percent as Shia, and 23 percent did not cite an affiliation within Islam. Given the potential of sectarian strife and history of repression, there may be reluctance to discuss religious matters in Iraq; just 55 percent say they had even heard of "Iraq's religious leaders," in aggregate. Of those who say they had heard of them, 81 percent of Shia Muslims expressed confidence in these leaders, compared with 57 percent of Sunnis.

In another difference, 92 percent of Shiites prefer a unified Iraq with its central government in Baghdad, compared with two-thirds of Sunnis. And a quarter of Sunnis called attacks on coalition forces acceptable, compared with 11 percent of Shiites.

Demographics
The poll also paints a compelling demographic portrait of the Iraqi people. In just 20 percent of Iraqi households does the main breadwinner hold a full-time, outside job; 58 percent are self-employed. Average household income is the equivalent of $164 per month, for an average of eight people per household.

Eighty-one percent of households have a refrigerator; 44 percent, an air conditioner (the average daily high temperature in Baghdad in August is 108 degrees); 44 percent, a washing machine; 37 percent, a telephone; 21 percent, a still camera. There are disparities across regions, with the south of the country substantially poorer.

The poll was conducted among Iraqis age 15 and up; those under age 18 accounted for 10 percent of the total sample (their attitudes are not strikingly different from their elders'). Iraq is a young country: Sixty-six percent of Iraqis 15 and up are under age 35, compared with 36 percent of Americans age 15 and up.

Methodology
This poll was conducted for ABCNEWS, ARD, the BBC and NHK by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England. Interviews were conducted in person, in Arabic and Kurdish, among a random national sample of 2,737 Iraqis age 15 and up from Feb. 9-28. The results have a two-point error margin.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Now this is all well in good in our country and doesnt raise so much of an eyebrow except this isnt us and this isnt there culture and as i hear one sauldi official once say 'we have been living in the modern world for 30 years, you have been for 200 and you shaped it so its hard for us to adapt' . Now think long and hard on these words esspecially 'you shaped it' the modern world is our world not there and a simple Ad on an arab channel whilst nurseing a hangover and drinking orange and water brought it home to me this is what they dont like they dont like the way we and by we i mean companys (which are the sign of a democracy by the way free companys and free working environment) trying to effect change in there world for profits and disregaring and threating the hardline relgious beliefs of there people.

There is one simple solution to that though - they don't have to buy our products. They want the computers and they want the cars and they want the telephones, but they don't want anything else. Change happens. We aren't forcing them to buy these things. Arab McDonalds are started by Arabs and are eaten at by Arabs, we aren't forcing them to go their.

In addition - it is a minority of Arabs that don't like those things. It's what's termed the "vocal minority" and that is what the fanatical clerics are. Take a look at Iran - the only way the clerics could retain power and prevent change was by outlawing all of the reformists. Why? Becuase they knew the people supported the very things you say they hate. But who hates it? The few powerful clerics and their underlings, that is all.

Aslo - it hasn't been 30 years that they have been living in the modern world. They have been exposed to the modern world since the time Britain reshaped the Middle East during WWI.

Think they are been stupid think of our own country we still have fuss about gay love on screen and things that go against the churchs credo and i dont think of this been a relgious country anymore then think of how the deeply relgious countrys are and how there deluded ideas are not so diffrent from there own yet there reactions are it has to be said

But we work out these differences by compromise, not by blowing up people. How many cities have been bombed because they performed gay marriages?

[Sween]

As usual JD a completally blinkred responce. Yes McDoanalds will be run by Arabs in Arab countrys but there is nothing destictaly Islamic or Asaian about Mc Doanalds what do you expect them to make a Mc Saudi sandwhich? The companys (and i state the companys because it is the companys) mite not be holding a gun to there head and forceing them but they are influencing them as they try to influence every single one of us a point i dont think should be overlooked (it certinally hasnt been by the terrorists)


Of course its not a majority that thinks this most young Arabs probably dont care infact they probably want to wear nice clothes drive fast cars and drink pepsi (hell they aint allowed to drink alchol so they must be gagging for something) but my point is that these things are weston in there nature. America has a huge effect over the culture of this country in terms of fashion and music and young people. Half the programs on our tele are american. Now this does not bother me but you cannot say that america does not have a social influence around the world through its media.

This i believe was one of the main initial reason for Al Quedas attacks plus all the political reason. The terrorist like to rule by ignorance, the west is evil etc but what media does is show no the west isnt evil its free and people would want this. That is why they hate america so much because by been the free nation you are everything that they dont want there people to be.

Now unfortintally you have played right into there propagander hands you have acted like the world bullys that they would have you seen as infact you have played right into there hands. If i was you i would work on showing that you dont want to rule and how should i put this a slightly less biased outlook on life i am still waiting for an american to say you know what i can kinda see why they mite not like us instead of they are all crazy terrorist relgious extremists

[Fenir_LacDanan]

hell mate. that was quite a largish post(s). Do you feel better now?

Maybe if you keep denying that the US has not subverted other governments, you'll even convince yourself...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Watch the flame baiting people!

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Watch the flame baiting people!

You really are no fun anymore Jannet

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sween
You really are no fun anymore Jannet

WaaaWaaaWaaa!!!

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
WaaaWaaaWaaa!!!

Dont make those noises at the father of a baby they will have no effect what so ever

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
As usual JD a completally blinkred responce. Yes McDoanalds will be run by Arabs in Arab countrys but there is nothing destictaly Islamic or Asaian about Mc Doanalds what do you expect them to make a Mc Saudi sandwhich?

Actually - you obviously have no idea about McDonalds. Their menu is geared toward each country. That is why McDonalds in India serves Indian food.

The companys (and i state the companys because it is the companys) mite not be holding a gun to there head and forceing them but they are influencing them as they try to influence every single one of us a point i dont think should be overlooked (it certinally hasnt been by the terrorists)

If the people of the Middle East - didn't buy franchises of McDonalds - there wouldn't be any McDonalds in the Middle East.

Now unfortintally you have played right into there propagander hands you have acted like the world bullys that they would have you seen as infact you have played right into there hands.

Is that so? huh - amazing. I suppose france has too then? What are you going to say when france gets bombed for the headscarf ban? That they shouldn't have run their country the way they chose? That they should have listened to the terrorists?

If i was you i would work on showing that you dont want to rule and how should i put this a slightly less biased outlook on life i am still waiting for an american to say you know what i can kinda see why they mite not like us instead of they are all crazy terrorist relgious extremists

Well - the thing is - the terrorists are religious fanatics. You are completely blind if you don't see the real goal of bin Ladin - especially since bin Laidn in one of this tapes last year stated that he isn't going to be satisfied until all the west is muslim (not just America).

Go ahead - blame on it on America all you want - we're used to it. We will save your asses like we always do obviously as Europe sticks their head in the sand - hoping for the problem to go away. Europe seems to have a perpetual "Speak no evil, hear no evil, see no evil".

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
hell mate. that was quite a largish post(s). Do you feel better now?

Maybe if you keep denying that the US has not subverted other governments, you'll even convince yourself...

Well all your examples of subverting other governments are incorrect - but I'm not surprised that you are so blind. You seem to be just a member who is hiding behind a new name and doesn't have the guts to state your opinions on your own name. Either that - or you are a newbie who just hates the US - since this is your only thread and the only posts you have are in this thread.