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09-14-2004, 06:21 PM | #41 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
A Mortal life perhaps but that does not mean she became Mortal. She died, still young, two years after an aged Aragorn dies. She wanders the woods of Lorien before lying down to die in her greif. She dies because of the bite of the mortal life, the loss of Aragorn! Most likely she lay down to die and returned to the Halls of Mandos. Not to mention where are the guidlines for half-elven choices!? Arwen had already lived for almost two thousand years before having to choose!? When exactlly do half-elven have to make their choice? Is it ever stated anywhere in Tolkiens writings? Personaly I think she made the choice before she even met Aragorn.
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
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09-14-2004, 10:22 PM | #42 | |||||
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Valinor
Posts: 76
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I'm afraid that's not the case.
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Letter No. 145: Quote:
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'Legolas' on The Barrow-Downs ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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09-15-2004, 12:22 AM | #43 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Arthedian
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I stand somewhat corrected, well done Ulmo. I really need to, and have been wanting to for some time, get The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien! So much of my misunderstandings are found in that book! Well... on to my next argument....
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-15-2004, 07:22 AM | #44 |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Valinor
Posts: 76
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No worries! This is a case that's very often misunderstood (especially since it isn't handled directly within the main text). I'm glad I could help.
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'Legolas' on The Barrow-Downs ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
09-15-2004, 01:02 PM | #45 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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I know what you mean Halbarad. It happens to me alot to.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-15-2004, 01:43 PM | #46 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
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I do not have the letters, but I have read most of that somewhere. It would either have to be HoME or perhaps a Michael Martinez article.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
09-15-2004, 02:03 PM | #47 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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09-15-2004, 02:10 PM | #48 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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I've read Unfinished Tales. But I haven't read the Letters.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-16-2004, 01:39 AM | #49 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Arthedian
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I have read The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and im starting in random order the first 5 books of the HoME. Though I really want to get the Letters, last time I was at the book store I picked it up and, had no cash, boooo. Anyhow....
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-22-2004, 11:33 AM | #50 | |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Valinor
Posts: 76
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Quote:
I'd read in this order... The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales/The Letters of JRR Tolkien, HoME HoME is definitely the final step. The letters can be read randomly alongside Unfinished Tales, or with The Silmarillion if you are halfway through or so. Many of the early letters are just letters to the publisher, friends, children, and his wife, then start his letters to Christopher about the progression of The Lord of the Rings. Then start the most interesting letters where Tolkien reveals his thought process behind certain events, the principles being displayed, etc.
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'Legolas' on The Barrow-Downs ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. Last edited by Ulmo : 09-22-2004 at 11:40 AM. |
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09-22-2004, 12:18 PM | #51 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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I've rread them all apart from The Letters and HoME, which I am hoping to get soon.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-15-2004, 02:48 PM | #52 |
Elentári
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Africa
Posts: 727
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I simply loved Silmarillion and I am 100% a Tolkien fan, but I paged through Unfinished Tales and I am not sure I will enjoy reading it. It looks a bit to dry to read. Do you think it is worth it to read it?
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10-15-2004, 02:54 PM | #53 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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In my opinion, The Unfinished Tales worth reading. They're not as good as the Sil, and probably passed less 'polishing' by Tolkien.. and still I at least found them interesting.. and enjoyable. |
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10-16-2004, 03:03 PM | #54 |
Elentári
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Africa
Posts: 727
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Thanx. Maybe I will read it, but first I must find The History of Middle Earth Vol. 3 - it's simply my favourite (the part with Beren & Luthien) and I must read the whole thing.
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10-16-2004, 04:29 PM | #55 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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If you want to get technical about it, there never has been a marraige between 'man' and 'elf'. Beren and Luthien were a 'Man' and an 'Elf Maid'. Since (as far as I know) the term 'elf' is canonically always used to refer to a /male/ elf.
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10-16-2004, 06:44 PM | #56 | |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
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10-18-2004, 03:58 PM | #57 |
Elentári
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Africa
Posts: 727
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I think you are right. It the days that Tolkien wrote the book, women where quite unimportant, with the consequence that when you talk about an elf, there is a 90% chance that that elf is male.
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10-18-2004, 05:16 PM | #58 | |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
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Quote:
Tolkien wrote about the three unions of the Eldar and the Edain in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. Occasionally, people will ask about or want to discuss the three marriages of Elves and Men, but there were more marriages than that (at least one more). It seems like a lot of people just sort of confuse "Eldar and Edain" with "Elves and Men" (and it doesn't help that both names were supposedly originally applied to the races and then later on applied only to sub-groups). |
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10-18-2004, 06:03 PM | #59 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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He desribed Galadriel as 'a slender elf-woman,' IIRC.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
10-18-2004, 10:01 PM | #60 | |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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Quote:
The terms used by the elves were actually nér and nÃ*s. Meaning, respectively, male and female (of any species). So an elf would have probably phrased it as a marraige between an atan nér and an elda nÃ*s - that is, between a human male and a female of the eldar. So, as near as I can hazard a guess... atan nér - Male Human, Man atan nÃ*s - Female Human, Woman elda nér - Male Elf, Elf elda nÃ*s - Female Elf, Elf-Maid Most probably, the 'elf' and 'elf maid' is just a translation of the elven words into english (er... westron), using a format similar to 'man' and 'woman' for convenience.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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