12-21-2005, 10:26 AM | #41 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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the same is true if you owned your own business... you could choose to display christian, and only christian, symbols "liberty" comes into the picture when we talk about the government or things that receive tax money... every citizen has the right to question where his tax money goes... and whether intentional or not, displaying one kind of religious image either exclusively, or to an excessively greater degree than another, implies that that religion is more important to the government... which is not true if you read our constitution one could even argue, as i sometimes feel, that considering all the needs in our country, our goverment should not be spending money on decorations period... there are much better places for this money to go the ACLU is not attacking your personal freedom of speech, it is questioning whether certain practices of our government reflect the collective view of all our citizens
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-21-2005, 10:36 AM | #42 |
Elf Lord
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mc beastie again?
^^ try posting to see if it kills the bug... edit** yes, can see the post above now Last edited by Butterbeer : 12-21-2005 at 10:38 AM. |
12-21-2005, 12:17 PM | #43 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-21-2005 at 12:18 PM. |
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12-21-2005, 12:35 PM | #44 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i'll ask you a question... if the white house didn't have a tree at all, or a menorah, or anything else, would it be the end of civilization as we know it?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-21-2005, 12:43 PM | #45 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-21-2005, 03:03 PM | #46 |
Quasi Evil
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Its historical roots? Dont open up that trap Lief.
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12-21-2005, 03:13 PM | #47 |
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I don't follow.
Our historical roots are what make us what we are. Virtually every major speaker and person who has caused change in our country has been a firm believer in God. This goes for our Founding Fathers and most of our presidents. "God" is embedded in the roots of our society. Seeking to change public acknowledgment of this fact would be, when the logic is followed to its conclusion, to turn us into a society like France, which bans headscarves on the women[/revulsion]. For a town to ban nativity scenes in shop windows is obscene. If we are not permitted to acknowledge God publicly in society, we are rejecting cultural roots embedded in history that make us American.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-21-2005, 03:15 PM | #48 |
of the House of Fëanor
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That's what makes us American? Being Christian is what makes us American? Oh, Liefer, I SO beg to differ. Christianity is NOT what makes us American.
Oh - by the way, Thomas Paine, who wrote Give me liberty or give me death, and was one of THE most highly influential and important founding fathers, was NOT Christian. I'm quite sure that there are many other examples I can list off, but the point I'm trying to make is that this is NOT supposed to be a country with a state sanctioned, enforced religion, PERIOD. Not Christian, not Muslim, not Jewish, not Hindu.
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~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 12-21-2005 at 03:18 PM. |
12-21-2005, 03:19 PM | #49 |
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What's ACLU?
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12-21-2005, 03:21 PM | #50 |
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Look, read the thread you silly goose! ACLU is the American Civil Liberties Union.
The ACLU defends Americans' constitutional right to exercise religious beliefs or no religion at all, free from government promotion of faith-based doctrine or activities.
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12-21-2005, 03:28 PM | #51 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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And this notion that its in the "historical roots" of america... well... Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 12-21-2005 at 03:30 PM. |
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12-21-2005, 03:32 PM | #52 |
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What I don't understand is how the White House not celebrating a Christian Christmas is going to be "devastating to our culture," lief, and I DEFinitely do not think that it would be as horrible a theft from our WORLD culture as blowing up Michelangelo's David would be. What an oddball analogy. One is a Christ-based celebration, the other a priceless culturally irreplacable work of art that will last the next thousand some-odd years, barring being blown up by Christian radicals.
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12-21-2005, 03:46 PM | #53 | |
Elf Lord
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I definitely agree that there's not supposed to be a state religion. However, I also feel that religion is strongly entangled in our culture. Privacy is one example. Another example would be, I am told, that much of our law was forged on the principles of the Ten Commandments. Is extricating the Ten Commandments, therefore, desireable? It might be necessary, if we try to remove religion entirely from the state. What, then, happens to our law? Many of the truths that all Americans, Christians or otherwise, hold to, are entangled to some extent with religious values. Trying to slice religion out of public life, therefore, may be doing irrepairable damage to our culture. That's all I'm claiming. Christmas is one tradition that Christians and non-Christians alike love, and which most non-Christians have said they prefer called "Christmas" rather than the meaningless term "festive". It's part of our culture, and a part of our culture, it should stay. Trying to change our culture to cut out everything that smacks of religion is impossible and extremely undesireable.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-21-2005, 03:54 PM | #54 | |
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well, i know little about the ACLU - and i do not judge them on one issue - i suspect on many things i may probably agree with them or in general support their general aims - but let's be very clear this thread is not a thread about the ACLU good or bad, on balance of everything they do: it is specifically about ....*pause* .... *goes to top of page - ..er ... - anyway scrub that bit ... ..it's about them banning christmas! - *attempts to rally* damn ..Rian has made it about all ACLU - (which i know nothing about) ..then wished to discuss specifically the banning of christmas - see how i highlighted that bit? well, anyway - it is absurd to think on any one subject you can get EVERYONE to agree - ALL our citizens - that just will never happen - also was it not yourself or was it the gaffer, who argued that many for example muslims have absolutely no objection to christmas iconography - it Is a tradition, part of a culture and whether you view it as a religious or everyday thing, christmas is as much about, snow, lights, presents, family get togethers, a big meal, time off, a rest, old classic films, booze, etc as it is about jesus or whatever. Most of my muslim mates wil happily take the time off, have a biig nosh up on christmas day, even hum along to the odd carol, buy the family a present ... though they are not christians, it is just a part of the culture they live in and this part they enjoy - it need not be about god, but it is a freedom of religion, a freedom of life, a freedom of expresion, a freedom to connect generations together and maintain traditions as a mainstay of continuity in an ever smaller, faster, ever more disparate and unconnected violent world. How does this defend not attack my civil liberties? I suspect i probably would not agree with many of Rian's other gripes about this ACLU - but on this lunacy ... i do. You should to my mind be clear in a distinction between whatever good work this organisation may do elsewhere - and this particluar ATTACK on civil liberties, by those supposedly defending it in OUR name. you see...boil it all down to the core here: they are saying they will decide what may be called this or that, thay will decide what traditions, iconography, what rights, what language, what events or depictions, what associated thoughts and holidays should be called ... THIS IS NOT CIVIL LIBERTY. This is an oppressive agenda, effectively curtailing the social, cultural, religious, linguistical and family rights of the majority of the cutlure, in a tradition that's main aim (beyond commercialism) is peace to all men and peace on earth! Run this logically then , if we object to christmas: we then have the totally unarguable right to complain about Diwlai, Ede, hannukah, etc etc ... where does it end? CND symbols? Peace doves? Pink LGB wrist bands?, medals of honour on old soldiers? National flags? Mosques? Gurdwaras? Jewish caps? Long beards? wearing a cross bracelet? Watching the simpsons? supporting or wearing a football club or shirt? Naming your child with a "christian" name? Must we all be called non controversial numbers henceforth? Shall we ban, david or peter, or simon or paul? What of Ali or imam or raj or Gujinder or Vishal etc etc ... there is just no good point to this and certainly no freedom or extension of civil liberties: it seems like double speak for communism in the name of civil freedom: a hammer to crack a non christmas brazil nut or walnut to me this is clear: this attempts to restrict freedom and civil liberties: not uphold them. Best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 12-21-2005 at 04:07 PM. |
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12-21-2005, 03:57 PM | #55 |
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BB, you're SO dramatic!!
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12-21-2005, 04:01 PM | #56 | |
Elf Lord
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I see attempts by corporations, or groups such as the ACLU, to try to ban religion (such as the religious term "Christmas") from public places as very much out of line, however. I read an article recently, in which the writer complained, "why can't this minority be more tolerant of the majority?" I think there's a lot of validity to that question. Christmas is ingrained in our culture.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-21-2005, 04:07 PM | #57 |
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Very much out of line?? Oh, if there's a God then THANK GOD for the ACLU, who's credo is this: to preserve & protect
* Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state. * Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin. * Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake. * Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.
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12-21-2005, 04:10 PM | #58 | |
Elf Lord
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and you are so pretty! - kind of how i imagined you - have you the pic with the short hair though? i always thought of you with short, possibly spiky hair. |
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12-21-2005, 04:11 PM | #59 |
of the House of Fëanor
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THANK you, BB! How sweet is that! I have short hair pix; I'll get around to posting one one of these days...
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12-21-2005, 04:22 PM | #60 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Yes christmas evolves and has many many roots most of which were originally pagan - cool - the holly and the ivy - put your holly over door and window to protect against the dark spirits entering the house ... the yule log ...etc etc many many ... but how on earth is this defending our civil liberties whenin fact if flies in the face of them??? I just think the ACLU really shoot themsleves in the foor with this one. |
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