|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
05-08-2003, 11:16 PM | #41 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
05-08-2003, 11:18 PM | #42 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
To me - reading languages isn't all that hard. It's really no different than learning a new programming language. Picking out words from a speaker and actually talking in the language is far more difficult than reading. Writing is the second hardest part. I got straight A's in Spanish and I got A's in French. Here are some French websites I was using to learn French.... BBC Languages: French Resources for Learning French Ressources en français langue seconde Learning French and French grammar Grammaire française interactive Guide de la phrase complexe French Grammar Central Tous Ã* la grammaire française! REALLY USEFUL FRENCH TEACHING SITE Grammaire et orthographe FREN 215: Introduction Ã* la linguistique française FRANÇAIS : GRAMMAIRE Bonjour de France Ados Le point de renontre des jeunes @dosurf, l'espace libre des jeunes By the way - through reading chat rooms I was able to find out that the slang term foy boy/man - similar to the english term "guy" is "mec" and other common slang terms. In French textbooks - they usually don't include common language like that.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 05-09-2003 at 12:56 AM. |
|
05-09-2003, 12:47 AM | #43 |
Lord of the Pants
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,382
|
New Zealand doesn't enforce you to learn languages unfortunately which is probably why I suck at picking them up. At various stages of my life I have tried to pick up Japanese, German, Russian, Dutch, French, signing, and Middle Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Of them all, the only one I did well at was the hieroglyphics - mainly because it's not really a spoken language, and it's easier to remember pictorial words, than it is letters.
|
05-09-2003, 02:48 AM | #44 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Oxford, MS
Posts: 274
|
Oookay, Jerseydevil, it isn't quote unquote proven that we have an instinct for language but it sure is well tested so far, and I firmly believe in the results. And that's the point: it doesn't matter if a six-year-old has opportunities to practice in public their knowledge of French or whatever in America, a child is just plain easier to teach French to than a teenager or adult. Period. And I think I've answered your other kind of hostile question about what languages I've bothered to learn. I had to learn them in my teens and early adulthood and therefore am not fluent in any of them, but my original point was that compared to the average American, at least I bothered trying. And you accuse me of arrogance, but what I said was based on several courses I've taken in linguistics and the accompanying textbooks. If you require sources, for starters pick up Steven Pinker's landmark study The Language Instinct. Anyhow yes I am arrogant concerning the subject I spent and borrowed thousands of dollars to learn something about, sue me.
Not wishing to get booted from Entmoot for flaming or whatever. Jerseydevil, you're right I'm wrong. |
05-09-2003, 03:17 AM | #45 | |
Fair Dinkum
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,319
|
Quote:
Argh! Programming languages! Not going there again. No, real languages are far easier for me to learn. (Except of course, I'm no programmer. Hmmm) |
|
05-09-2003, 03:50 AM | #46 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
This what I said so you can read it again... Quote:
Quote:
With effort - you can become fluent in a foreign language in adulthood - it's just more difficult. Also - not everyone is wired to learn languages. For some people it is much more difficult than others. I agree that the average American doesn't bother to learn a foreign language on their own. But why is it necessary? If they're not going to go to Europe or something and have a chance to use it then what is the real need? I feel having an understanding of language and having a foreign language requirement in high school is important - but I don't think it is necessary for every American to speak another language fluently. There are a lot of things out there just as valable to know - such as physics, biology, chemistry, calculus, etc - but there is only so much time in a day. What would come in more handy is if people tried teaching themselves a programming language - then they would understand how a computer works and know how much goes into getting it to do what the user wants. But I don't look down on people who don't know how to program or have no desire to learn - because it's their choice. You seem to think just because you have chosen to take it upon yourself to learn various foreign languages that everyone else is an idiot for not having a desire to.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 05-09-2003 at 03:53 AM. |
|||
05-09-2003, 05:00 AM | #47 |
Corruptor
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Jozi SA
Posts: 1,885
|
In SA we have 11 official languages, each with their own regional dialect etc. The two most commonly spoken languages are English & Afrikaans with Zulu & Xhosa the most commonly spoken African languages. Our entire population speaks at least 2 languages fluently and in some cases even more.
Of course being a very cosmopolitan country there are a great many European and Asian communities represented as well, it would be extremely frustrating trying to learn all these languages. In my case for instance I have Portuguese, Greek, Japanese, Yugoslavian, Bulgarian, Polish, Dutch, German, Afrikaans, English, Zulu, Sotho, Xhosa, Coloured and Indian friends. If we all go out it would sound like a bizarre cacophony if we didn't communicate in English. When I'm with the family I speak my mother tongue - Afrikaans and at work I speak English even though it's not any of the people who work here's first language (My boss is Malawian, I'm Afrikaans, the other 2 guys are Xhosas from the old Transkei and the tealady is Sotho), so you see why it is just easier to speak English? (Though I do speak [broken] Sotho and Zulu and I can help myself / understand Xhosa, Dutch and German and swear / curse in Portuegese and sign ) One of our 'unofficial' languages is Funagalo, it's a language that was developped on the mines to accommodate the vast numbers of illiterate migrant workers that came to SA after the discovery of gold. The language is a mixture of English, Afrikaans, Portuguese (for the workers from Mozambique), Shangaan, Sepedi, isiZulu, isiXhosa, isiVenda and one or two more that I cannot remember. It's a completely different sound than any of the languages that 'built' it - quite amazing when you hear it (and to think it's only been around since the late 19th century) I don't for one minute think that American and English people are adverse to learn other languages, it's just that there really is no need unless they travel a lot. English after all is the only 'official' language of their countries. In SA we speak English in most places as it is more convenient. Funny enough, from the number of Brittish friends I have, I have learnt that we speak "Queen's English" in SA & we do it better than most Brits Besides, one's ability to learn new languages does diminish with time. What I would think is arrogant is if Americans & Brits (and other English - only countries) were to travel to foreign countries & just assume that the locals must speak English to accommodate them. That's why locals become rude to tourists, at least make an attempt to greet them in their own language. (You wouldn't have to worry if you are ever in SA though, we tend to be very relaxed about that - if you do hang out with the locals though you should expect to be taught a few phrases in the other languages. And of course we will laugh at your attempts, not to make you feel bad or degrade you, but because it will sound funny - Afrikaans & African languages have sounds that are totally foreign to the English language and foreigners invariably get them wrong) As a matter of interest - there are Afrikaans universities in Russia. I thought it was weird when I heard it, because Afrikaans is mostly a language you speak at home & isn't really used internationally, so why would anyone who isn't planning on staying here want to learn it? Not that I mind, I love my language, it's extremely descriptive & alive. Ask any Englishman in SA, if someone insults you in English it's OK, but once you've been insulted in Afrikaans you feel like all the soap in the world could not wash you clean (English insults tend to stick to the 'f' word or 'sh*t' etc, whereas in Afrikaans we have about 7 different words that could have the same meaning as the 'f' word, but depending on the way you use the word it could take on a completely different meaning as well. *checks length of post* Sorry guys, I was ranting wasn't I? I'll stop now
__________________
Don't wet yourself with excitement. Last edited by Baby-K : 05-09-2003 at 05:05 AM. |
05-09-2003, 05:06 AM | #48 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
05-09-2003, 05:42 AM | #49 | |
Corruptor
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Jozi SA
Posts: 1,885
|
Quote:
Something else you might find of interest re the African languages are the way they have to sometimes describe an object at length because there is no singular word for it. And also how verbs etc are changed depending whether or not you are speaking to a singular person or more than 1. For example, in North Sotho the singular noun for 'girl' is mosetsana. If you want to tell one girl to sit you'd say Motsetsana, sepela gabotse (Girl, please sit nicely), however if you wanted to say the same thing to 2 or 3 girls you'd have to change it to Basetsana sepelang gabotse (Basetsana is the plural girls & thus you have to add the 'ng' at the end of the verb to idicate that you are addressing the plural form). The same goes for greetings, if you greet on person it would be Dumela and in a crowd Dumelang. Also, if there is an important person you have to wait for him to greet you first, then your greeting must single him out (Like you have to say Dumela Morena...[morena means master / mister]) before you greet the other people. There are also different ways to say goodbye (depending on whether or not the person you are addressing is going to be staying in the same place or going somewhere else) The zulus have a way of greeting or acknowledging you (I won't post the zulu words because I forget the correct spelling & if I misspell it it could mean something else) that translates to "JD, son of....., I see you" They usually do that when they want to let you know that you are important to them & you are welcome to speak (usually important people do this) (I'm not speaking out of first hand knowledge though, this is what my friend has told me). I could post some of the Afrikaans things, but then I'd go on & on, which would be unfair to the people who aren't interested. But what I can say about the different languages is that each also comes with it's own cultural heritage, including traditional food, dress code and it even influenced the way their houses were built & decorated. And language / cultural groups also influence the political orientation of some groups.
__________________
Don't wet yourself with excitement. |
|
05-09-2003, 07:15 AM | #50 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
I'm told it's mainly because of the actual Dutch language. Dutch has many sounds (more than English or so I'm told) so it's easier to pronounce things in other languages because we know much of the sounds. Sometimes it seems (from my point of view) that English-speaking people can't say a vowel without adding an 'i' sound. It's rather funny. But makes it difficult for me to read solitary vowels in English they sound waaay different than the Dutch way of pronouncing them. Another factor is that Dutch has many borrowed words from German, French and English which makes the transit easier. And another thing is that most schools give 'standard' languages. Which means the foreign languages we learn are devoid of any local accent or local words.
__________________
We are not things. |
|
05-09-2003, 02:33 PM | #51 |
Sapling
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Posts: 10
|
Great responses! I'm not sure who said English is hard to learn but I can offer my experiences of learning English from my native German.
It was hard at first. I started quite late, and I firmly stuck into the harsh sounds of German. But I slowly mastered it and became more and more fluent. There is no secret to learning languages, its just practice, repetition- practice again and communicating with natives. And by the way, I cannot, absolutely cannot pronounce my English 'w's as 'w's. I cannot help but fall into the German trap of pronouncing them all as 'v's. Okay, I'm a stereotype! And remember, ve haff vays of making you talk, ja?
__________________
Wir Deutschen fuertschen Gott und sonst nicht auf der Welt We Germans fear God and nothing else in the whole World. |
05-09-2003, 02:52 PM | #52 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
But none of us understood what he meant by 'AH-migga' (this really doesn't do his accent justice, though). He kept going on and on about 'Ah-migga' this and 'Ah-migga' that, the students stopped taking notes and were just staring at each other with frantic confused faces. No one daring to raise their hands. Then he draws lower case omega on the board... big sigh of relief from the room and everyone goes back to taking notes. |
|
05-09-2003, 03:42 PM | #53 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Oxford, MS
Posts: 274
|
jerseydevil, all I'm going to say is, once again, I am not just stating an opinion here, I am referring to ample evidence that language is based on an instinct hardwired into young humans' brains. But obviously there's no point in arguing about it.
|
05-09-2003, 07:20 PM | #54 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Again - the only reason why it is easier for a child to learn a foreign language is because the brain has not become set in understanding and comprehending a particular language yet. This happens as a person gets older. There have been studies done showing a difference on wherea person's native language is stored in the brain versus languages learned later in life.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 05-09-2003 at 07:34 PM. |
|
05-09-2003, 07:23 PM | #55 |
The Fleet-Footed
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 913
|
I agree with what Jersey Devil is saying: my teacher was talking about that the other day.
I am 17 and I love languages. I live in Canada, so I am required to take French until grade 11, but I'm going to take it next year in grade 12, and on into University. I love French. All my friends hate it though, and I can't figure out why. Ignorance? I dunno.. I also want to study Old English (Anglo-Saxon) and maybe Icelandic (which is related to OE) at university. I also want to learn to speak Estonian, which is related to Finnish.
__________________
Jesus saved me "To remain ignorant of things that happened before you were born is to remain a child" (Cicero, 106-43 B.C.) "Art is a lie which makes us realize the truth" (Picasso) Last edited by Shadowfax : 05-09-2003 at 07:24 PM. |
05-09-2003, 10:27 PM | #56 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Queen's
Posts: 1,245
|
I disliked French and dropped it as soon as I could (after grade 10) but I regret it now.
__________________
"Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom" |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
LOTR Discussion: Appendices E and F | Forkbeard | LOTR Discussion Project | 11 | 09-15-2008 06:16 PM |
Do you actually care about Tolkien's languages? | Peter_20 | Middle Earth | 6 | 08-25-2007 09:30 AM |
Star Wars Languages | Bombadillo | The Star Wars Saga | 12 | 05-07-2004 12:58 AM |
Tolkien discussion forums in other languages | Shadowfax | Middle Earth | 11 | 02-05-2004 09:06 AM |
The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-Earth | bmilder | Middle Earth | 15 | 04-30-2003 08:32 PM |