02-17-2005, 07:41 PM | #41 | ||
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(gtg - in-laws here!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-18-2005, 12:58 PM | #42 | ||||
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Wrong. No. The basic premise is not philosophical. It is quite based on empiricism. What you state is not the basic premise of the theory. It is a conclusion. Conclusions that are based on empirical data and theories, but remain untestable, are philosophical, however. But they do carry an awful lot of weight in philosophical arguments, because they are based upon good, solid arguments. By stating the conclusion as the basic premise of the theory you are doing a disservice to logical argument, not to mention school children all over the country. The basic premise of the theory is that species change over time.
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02-18-2005, 01:27 PM | #43 | ||
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Yeah, the Theories of Evolution all started with Darwin's studies on Galapagos island finches IIRC. That's not a theological idea.
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02-18-2005, 02:55 PM | #44 | |
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02-18-2005, 03:47 PM | #45 | ||
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I guess I don't RRC... . I think I actually knew that once... back in first year... I knew so much then.
Alright, Darwin's theories and his mentor who defended them publically (whose name escapes me ATM) brought a lot of material to the theory and also a lot of public attention.
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02-19-2005, 06:39 AM | #46 | |
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The earth is thousands of years old, millions even, well outside any frame we humans can percieve. It doesn't come with a birth certificate. All we know is that it was here when we got here and quite a long time before hand. The time scale is immensly longer than one human life span, so the estimate of age will unavoidably be much rougher and more inaccurate.
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02-20-2005, 03:22 PM | #47 | |
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If it is, then the age of the earth is the least of our problems...
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02-21-2005, 09:36 AM | #48 | |
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this is all very simplified, please forgive me that i cannot elaborate much at the moment. when i find the time to read the whole thread, i might post more. another good example would be any human actions. the idea what has to be done is already "there", before it is actually done. what i liked to point out was that evolution and creationism are not strict opposites. to elaborate on the ontological premises (Plato, hey!) i have not the time at the moment. |
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02-21-2005, 06:27 PM | #49 | |||||||||||
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I don't have problems with most of the theory of evolution. It's the part where supposedly one-celled thingys change from one-celled thingys to humans thru things like beneficial mutations and natural selection that I object to. It's a nice theory, but that's all it is - it certainly isn't observable. Quote:
(and btw, Der Mensch allerdings ist die Krone der Schopfung!) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-21-2005, 06:37 PM | #50 | ||||
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I had no idea you spoke German R*an! I'm impressed.
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However, I think you and I have expounded the nature of scientific theory in this thread ad infinitum.
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02-21-2005, 06:39 PM | #51 |
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Theories are wonderful things, and we learn a lot by positing theories and testing them. There's nothing wrong with a theory! except when people confuse it with a fact!!
If Blackheart agrees that evolution is a theory that could possibly be wrong, and in addition, contains some elements that are entirely beyond the scope of scientific investigation and flatly in the realm of speculation (based upon the obvious fact that we're talking about things that are in the past and cannot be scientifically tested themselves, tho their "remains" can), then I'll be happy! I'm easy Do you agree with this, Blackheart?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-21-2005, 09:00 PM | #52 | |||||||||||
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I don't CARE if macro-evolution is true. It is currently the best working theory, and is quite unlikely to change without some startling new evidence. I have yet to see any credible scientific analysis of data that supports a competing theory. Quote:
intervals, but any other conclusions drawn form that are philosophical. (And it's notoriously difficult to empirically verify that ANYTHING is actually random) Quote:
That's why they are often referred to as models... Quote:
the model, nor has anyone come up with one that does so better. Nor is it expected that any data will EVER arise that does contradict it, HOWEVER, you just cannot say that. Because at that point you are crossing into the realm of philosophy and metaphysics. Which is why, no matter how much data, scientific models are reffered to as theories. You just can not specify that no data will ever appear that contradicts the model; Therefore you cannot OBSERVE that no data will appear. At least until the universe ends. At which point it's a moot discussion. Quote:
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It is currently the only empirically based (scientific) option out there. With any credibility that is... Quote:
However the ability to test for physical manipulation does pose problems for certain philosophical ideas that the data does not support... Specifically things like saying the earth is only 5000 years old, or that humans are from another planet... Sure you could postulate that the aliens, or whoever, falsified evidence, but there is no data to support that theory either, and it is currently untestable, so it still remains in the realm of metaphysics... Quote:
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There isn't (a credible) one that I'm aware of. Certainly not one supported by any empirical data.
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02-22-2005, 11:22 AM | #53 | ||
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I don't think R*an is saying Evolution shouldn't be taught in schools here. Also, it doesn't matter all the much to me whether Intelligent Design is called a theory, a philosophy, or Bob.
However, my problem with the theory/philosophy/Bob is this: it's too simple of a method to explain the origins of life. I strongly believe that God made life, and its processes, much more complicated than Intelligent Design suggests. Interesting note: while still a foetus, humans have gills. Why? We don't breathe inside the womb. Observations like this indicate that macro-evolution is a very sensible idea. But I know you're not saying it's not a sensible idea R*an. Intelligent Design is very WYSIWYG. The spaces between dinosaurs and mammals etc. seem to be discounted. Maybe you can shed some more light on that for me R*an. (Ooh, this reminds me of a question for the Theology thread... I'll go resurrect that now...)
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02-22-2005, 02:45 PM | #54 | |
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02-22-2005, 04:21 PM | #55 | |||
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Okay, Steve then. I apologive in advance to anyone named Steve.
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02-22-2005, 04:30 PM | #56 | |
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02-22-2005, 04:38 PM | #57 | |||
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Erm... yes... now where did we put that topic. Yes... um... w00t for Evolution!
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02-22-2005, 05:02 PM | #58 |
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hey my dragon's called perilla
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02-22-2005, 05:13 PM | #59 | ||
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n. 1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy. 2. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed. 2b. A real occurrence; an event 2c. Something believed to be true or real 3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact. 4. Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact. Facts aren't as hard and fast as you might think. You will notice definitions 1 and 2c readily covers scientific theories as facts. The knowledge is based on observable data. Facts can also be wrong. It was a known FACT that radio and light waves traveled through the ether at one point. Quote:
Of course it's POSSIBLE that scientists are completely wrong about everything we believe about the fundamental nature of the universe. Fairy's could suddenly start to fly out of my ass too. It's just not very bloody likely. Anything remotely connected with the empirical portions of the theory of evolution can be empirically tested and falsified. Even if it did happen in the remote past. One can literally think of hundreds if not thousands of tests to perform, given enough money and time. What cannot be tested, and therefore remains in the realm of metaphysics, are ideas involving why certain universal functions and laws are the way they are. Questions like why and issues of intent are likely going to remain philosophical for a very long time. But then again, fairys may just start flying out of my butt any moment now...
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02-22-2005, 05:27 PM | #60 | ||||
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What does matter is that it would engender students who are confused. Which is why you should care what ID is referred to. And Bob is hardly a dignified name for what is actually a very useful and interesting philosophical argument. While it may have no empirical basis, there is nothing wrong with it as a philosophical argument. Quote:
The idea of an intelligent designer doesn't specify whether it's aliens or a supreme being. All you're saying is that this creator/designer made things more complicated than that creator/designer... Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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