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05-14-2006, 07:09 AM | #41 | |||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
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1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant. 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet. 3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens. 4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation. 5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper. 1 is a circular definition, it doesnt leave us none the wiser; 2 and 5 are unacceptable since 2 doesnt apply in all cases since something harmful can be good and something pleasant (or constructive) can be bad and 5 can be applied to both good and evil persons (but in itself doesn't define them). Quote:
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Manwe could not by duress attempt to compel Melkor to reveal his thought and purposes, or (if he used words) to speak the truth. If he spoke and said: this is true, he must be believed until proved false; if he said: this I will do, as you bid, he must be allowed the opportunity to fulfill his promise. Of the risks of doing otherwise, I reffered to previously. Quote:
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05-14-2006, 09:39 AM | #42 | |||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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This will be my last post on this thread Landroval (at least for a while). We don’t seem to be getting anywhere. As I said before, I do respect your opinion and defense of Manwe.
However, you seem to think that I am attacking Manwe. This really isn’t true. The main point I have been arguing is that he is capable of making mistakes. Not that he is evil, stupid, an unfit leader, etc. Just capable of making mistakes. Is that really so terrible or unlikely? Quote:
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Ok, the primary long term goals were achieved. I think we agree there. But there was tremendous bloodshed and suffering along the way. I imagine you have to agree with me there. So, if the Valar acted as they did to get where they did (which was the successful reaching of the long term goal) then didn’t they have to plan for all this suffering and bloodshed to happen? Or maybe the long term goal was reached in a way unforseen (by the Valar, not Eru), which is my opinion. Or did the Valar make decisions based solely on Eru’s will without utilizing any of their own wisdom? I don’t think you have ever given your opinion on this (although it sounds like maybe you are leaning towards the last option). I personally don’t believe that the Valar would willingly cause great suffering for Eru’s children. What is your opinion? Would they do this to fulfill Eru’s design? It did happen so it must have been part of Eru's plan, right? |
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05-14-2006, 11:35 AM | #43 | |||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
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Well, then I guess we will have to leave the fun on this for another time ... To address your last paragraph:
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05-14-2006, 11:37 AM | #44 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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I had a previous (and rather recent) experience with a discussion turning into philosophical/theological dispute. It was on another forum, but the topic was similar: 'were Melkor's actions a part of Eru's design?". I learned that such debates never lead to an agreement, because there is Tolkien'e early POV, there is rather different later Tolkien's POV, there is Christian POV which some equal with Tolkien's later POV, and the personal POV's of all the people involved. The debate becomes a catastrophe, and leads to hurt feelings of some who really take this to heart. I simply feel that I: 1. don't care enough to participate and 2. I am out of my depth here. As simple as that. Quote:
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