Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[Artanis]

Welcome Tar-Palantir! I saw your post count just now. Hope you enjoy yourself here.

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
1. foreknowledge = predestination

Agree. But I'm not sure Eru knew everything in detail on beforehand, see 2 and 3.

2. predestination and free choice do not contradict each other.

This is where I don't agree. I still hold on to this: If Eru had foreknowledge of every choice his creatures would take before he created them, then he is ultimately responsible for all actions of his creatures, and free will is not free, only seemingly so.

You say all history was pre-determined within the music of the Ainur. I think that's right in a large scale, in macrocosmos, and is what might be called destiny. But history does not need to be predetermined at the level of each individual. As you say, history unfolds as free creatures make free choices, but rather than these choices being predetermined, I think there's numerous possible combinations of choices which all contributes to the predestined history of the world in the end. But Eru does not know in advance the choice of each individual.

And mustn't we also remember that the Ainur do not come from the music?

3. A universe which contains evil does not mean the Creator of said universe is evil, nor does it make him guilty.

I agree with this, but I think Eru at least is capable of doing evil. The Ainur represent different parts of his personality, and they were capable of doing evil, at least Melkor was. Also I agree with Lief Erikson in that you don't have to know evil to appreciate goodness.

I don't know if all this makes sense, I'm just trying to explain it to myself. You people are of great help!

[Lief Erikson]

Well, sure it makes sense. That doesn't mean it's true, mind it means that it's a plausible theory. We all simply have to decide for ourselves which of the possible theories floating around in this forum is the right one, or if any of them are.

Well, if my last example, taking the situation into human terms, doesn't explain things, I don't know how to. A human, simply because he has foreknowledge of another human's actions, doesn't control that person's decisions or actions. The same can be applied to Eru. But, it is his responsibility. It is a human's responsibility, if they know what another human is planning to do, to tattle-tale if it is an evil thing. Then they are prevented. It is Eru's responsibility to see that everything comes right in the end. He does know, and that gives him responsibility. But it is plain simply from the fact that there is evil in existence that there isn't both predestination and a loving God. There is evil because there is free choice.

[Tar-Palantir]

Lief, [But it is plain simply from the fact that there is evil in existence that there isn't both predestination and a loving God. There is evil because there is free choice.]

Are you speaking of Eru and middle-earth, or are we crossing over into theology proper here? (grin)

[Lief Erikson]

To me it doesn't matter, either or. Tolkien's God is being described the exact same way as the God I believe in, so I'm attributing my opinions of one to both. This is a discussion of predestination, among other things, be it real life predestination or Middle Earth predestination. Although for those who do not believe in God, they can still post in this thread discussing the Middle Earth predestination.

Either way, you cannot have evil, predestination, and a loving God. One of them has to give, and as evil is proven to exist in both worlds, and Eru being loving is being assumed in this thread. So I'm assuming that predestination has to go. My reasons for why and how it can go are described in previous posts . . . I haven't seen any responses to my examples.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
To me it doesn't matter, either or. Tolkien's God is being described the exact same way as the God I believe in, so I'm attributing my opinions of one to both. This is a discussion of predestination, among other things, be it real life predestination or Middle Earth predestination. Although for those who do not believe in God, they can still post in this thread discussing the Middle Earth predestination.

Either way, you cannot have evil, predestination, and a loving God. One of them has to give, and as evil is proven to exist in both worlds, and Eru being loving is being assumed in this thread. So I'm assuming that predestination has to go. My reasons for why and how it can go are described in previous posts . . . I haven't seen any responses to my examples.

But does not the Bible say "The very hairs of your head are numbered?" Wouldn't you say that this is a reference to pre-knowledge of events to come to the people of the world or predestination? Doesn't the Bible also say that everything is written? I would prefer not to turn this into a religious debate outside of Tolkien, but we can compare his ideas to our own world and God.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
perhaps eru was a humerous god and enjoyed watching what would transpire in middle earth with indifference. eru was simply watching tv and the sitcom was arda.

But what were the commercials?

[Rían]

I haven't checked in this thread for a few days - what a nice and interesting discussion Let me go get a few of your comments and then comment on your comments ... *pages back to beginning, being a very methodical person*

Well, I totally disagree with Ancalagon's conclusion that because evil was chosen by Melkor, that evil is present in Eru. I like Tar-Palantir's summary, especially how he/she (I'm sorry, I don't know which one applies to you ) says "This in no way impugns the righteous character of Eru." I agree.

Another from Tar-Palantir:

1. foreknowledge = predestination ..... And now the first: If Iluvatar knows the outcome from the beginning and yet allows it, has he not then predestined that outcome?

Now here is where I have a slight difference of opinion. I think there is a difference between foreknowledge and predestination. I think you can (if you are God, as I believe in Him, or Eru, as described by Tolkien) have foreknowledge of everything, and yet not "predestine" it. (this is so hard to try to talk about deep and complex thoughts using a keyboard and a limited language! It's hard enough expressing complex HUMAN thoughts thru language, let alone thoughts about GOD, who is by definition above our complete comprehension and thus cannot be fully described by any language). I think that free will and foreknowledge are perfectly compatible, when you are talking about God or Eru being the one having the foreknowledge.

For example, some Christians talk about the "will of God" when considering certain choices. For example, if you just graduated from college and you have 2 job offers, which should you take? I used to think one was "the will of God" and the other wasn't. However, as I have grown over the years, I believe that it isn't that simple. I believe that the "will of God" is more in the moral statements, such as "love your neighbor as yourself", etc., as opposed to actions, as long as the actions are not immoral (i.e., adultery is always wrong). If there are no moral problems with either job choice, then I believe that both are compatible with God's will. See, the choice is mine, but I believe that God, being God, knew which one I would choose beforehand.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
But does not the Bible say "The very hairs of your head are numbered?" Wouldn't you say that this is a reference to pre-knowledge of events to come to the people of the world or predestination? Doesn't the Bible also say that everything is written? I would prefer not to turn this into a religious debate outside of Tolkien, but we can compare his ideas to our own world and God.

SGH, I don't want to cross any lines here, so let me know if I do. I'm new here you know.

But I think that whether we are discussing Arda or the real world, we must let scripture determine its theology. Scripture to Arda would be Tolkien's writings. I think Tolkien makes it abundantly clear that all the history of the world took place in the music of the Ainur before the world began. If that's not predestination, I don't know what is.

As for the real world, that predestination is taught in Bible I think is undeniable as well. And I am willing to demonstrate that if it's okay with the administrator. But if you think it would be better, we could take it to the general discussion board or private e-mail. What do you think?

I also recognize that this is not a Christian board per se and many here are not ready or willing to accept the Christian Bible as an authority in theological matters. But we all do bring our own world-views to the table don't we? And that's not a bad thing.

[Rían]

Hi, Tar-Palantir! I finally finished editing my post (2 above yours) - could you check it out, since I was commenting on a post of yours? (you may have missed my edits, because your post came after mine.) I'd like your opinion. Sorry it took so long, I have a sick kid at home (sick enough to stay home from school, but not sick enought to not be bored!) and I'm popping in and out...

[Rían]

and if I recall correctly, I believe it was stated that NOT all the history was in the music... I'll try to find the reference .

[Sister Golden Hair]

My dear Tar-Palantir, I agree with you and have no problem discussing the comparisons of simularities between our own world and the wrold of Tolkien. If religion in the real world falls into the discussion, that is fine, as long as it pertains to Tolkien, then it belongs in this forum. We must be careful not to stray away from the comparisons which then would make this an off topic discussion that would no longer belong here.

[Tar-Palantir]

How do you get the key-board to make an accent mark?

Thanks for pointing me to your previous post and letting me know you edited it. I just finished editing mine. I only changed a word though.

I think there are two undeniable truths taught in the Bible.

One is that God is sovereign. And the other is that man is responsible. The two truths are compatible. If we have trouble reconciling them, it is due to the limitations that we have as finite creatures attempting to fathom an infinite God.

I see both of these ideas played out in the Silmarillion also to one degree or another.

My personal theology is that of classical Protestantism as embodied in the Westminster confessions of faith.

But if I had to pin-point a theology for Tolkien in middle-earth I would have to classify it as Pelagian. Pelagianism has man as morally neutral with the ability to choose to be either good or evil. In Pelagian thought, man is not corrupt, but corruptible. That sure seems the case in the Sil. I see the characters as corruptible, but not inherently corrupt. Ever notice that there is very little crime in middle-earth?

[Lief Erikson]

Well, maybe the Silmarillion is Pelagian and maybe it isn't. But there are undeniably some Christian themes in it, and for the sake of continuing the discussion about predestination, I'm going to assume that Eru is exactly the same as God.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
But does not the Bible say "The very hairs of your head are numbered?" Wouldn't you say that this is a reference to pre-knowledge of events to come to the people of the world or predestination? Doesn't the Bible also say that everything is written? I would prefer not to turn this into a religious debate outside of Tolkien, but we can compare his ideas to our own world and God.

The Bible does say that the hairs on your head are numbered, and although I don't remember whether or not it says everything is written, it certainly seems possible to me. All I can do is emphasize the difference between decision making and knowing.

If you tell someone named Mike you are going to murder someone named Cathy, then Mike knows that you are going to murder Cathy. The decision as to whether or not you murder Cathy is still your own. Mike knows that you're going to murder Cathy, but that doesn't mean that it isn't your decision. Mike isn't the one who is murdering Cathy, you are. It is Mike's responsibility to do something about it, and it is his responsibility to do right for the correct final outcome, but it isn't him that is directly responsible for what you do.

Simply because God/Eru knows everything doesn't mean that he makes everyone do what they do, or that he decided beforehand what everyone is going to do. Simply because he is God and not human Mike doesn't mean that his knowing is different in this instance than human knowing. Human knowledge and human action are different. You cannot murder Cathy and then say "Mike made me do it." That would be stupid. Mike didn't make you murder Cathy, even if he did know that you were going to do it.

Would someone please explain to me why Mike did murder Cathy?

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Simply because God/Eru knows everything doesn't mean that he makes everyone do what they do, or that he decided beforehand what everyone is going to do. Simply because he is God and not human Mike doesn't mean that his knowing is different in this instance than human knowing. Human knowledge and human action are different. You cannot murder Cathy and then say "Mike made me do it." That would be stupid. Mike didn't make you murder Cathy, even if he did know that you were going to do it.

Would someone please explain to me why Mike did murder Cathy?

I am not denying the responsibility of free creatures for their own actions. You seem to imply that I am.

The men who crucified Christ, were they acting freely, or were their actions pre-determined?

[Lief Erikson]

They were acting freely, for the most part, although it is possible that the devil also was using them somewhat to his own ends. Unlike God, the devil does like to take control of people whenever they give an opening, and those people's hatred of Jesus was definitely an opening. You realize that in the New Testament it says "The devil entered into Judas."

Because Eru/God knows everything, he can send Jesus to die on the cross and know that it will take place, and we aren't denying that he can manipulate events to some extent to bring about his own purposes. The Assyrian invasion of Israel, for example, and those other nations that conquered them as a punishment from God. The punishment of the Noldor by Melkor when they turned away from the Valar/God, and when Earniel makes the trip back/the Israelites prayed to God for help, he/the Valar came back in power to help them.

However, what I'm disagreeing with is the attack on free will that predestination makes, and I was pointing out that these people's actions are their OWN actions in my example. As yet, someone believing in predestination has yet to show me that it was really Mike who killed Cathy. I don't think it was.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
How do you get the key-board to make an accent mark?

Boy, are you asking the right person! First I ask nicely, then I glare at it, then I throw it across they room.... If that doesn't work, here is a copy of what a fellow Mooter (Ñólendil - he has 2 diacritical marks in his name!) sent to me on the subject:

It's the Alt number thingy. "Ã*" is Alt+161.

Here's a bit of a list to help you:


á Alt+160
Ã* Alt+161
ó Alt+162
ú Alt+163
é Alt+130
ä Alt+132
ë Alt+137
ï Alt+139
Ä Alt+142
ö Alt+148
Ö Alt+153
¿ Alt+168
Þ Alt+0222
þ Alt+0254
ñ Alt + 164
Ñ Alt + 165
¿ Alt+168
æ Alt+145
Æ Alt+146
û Alt+150
É Alt +144

So, Tar-Palantir, hold down the alt key, type the number, then release the alt key. HOWEVER, if you have an especially irritating computer, like mine and several other Mooters, some of the numbers won't work, and you won't be able to get many of the marks. That is why I put all of the special characters in my sig, so I can cut and paste them into my posts, because they are part of the visual beauty of Tolkien's works for me and I like to have them there. Good luck! Let me know which method works for you.

ps - since you did ask about the marks, you might be interested in one of my favorite threads - Writing Using Tengwar Characters, in the Middle Earth forum. Check it out! you might like it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

It seems to me that some of the example you are useing Lief, could involve the laws of man also which could have an impact on the outcome of events. I think we should express just what our own definitions are of predetermined fates. Let me use a comon example. You often hear people say that when someone dies it must have been their time. If someone for instance is in a car wreck, and they were not wearing a seatbelt, and were thrown from the car and killed, was it their time to die, or would they have lived had they worn a seatbelt. If it is predestination, then they would have died nomattewhat. It was meant to be. Planned by a devine preasence. What if someone takes a shortcut home from the store and is robbed and killed by another person? Was that meant to be, or would that person have made it home safely had he not taken a shortcut and gone another way?

I think in Tolkien in regards to Morgoth's actions and how much Eru is to blame for that is not so difficult as we make it out to be and even in our own world of belief in this. Eru created the Valar to serve him. He gave them free will, and once free will is in place, I guess predestination would then play a smaller role, because then the choices that are made determine the outcome of events. Eru started out never anticipating evil, the same as our own God with Satan. God created Satan, so is God to blame for that evil? Eru created Morgoth, is Eru to blame for that evil?

If you are the master of a creation, how much of the responsibility is yours, if that creation goes bad. Even likewise, should God, or Eru be given the credit for all the good their creation brings about?

[Rían]

You know, I just had a thought - to use the example of our own world - actually, according to the Bible and the Christian faith, God did, in a sense, take responsibility - He sent His Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty of our sin for us, if we choose to accept it. That does not relieve us of the responsibility of our sin - there are still consequences, etc. - but the penalty has been paid for each individual person, if they choose to accept it. So God, knowing ahead of time that evil was a possibility, also planned ahead of time a way to atone for that possibility.
Does that make sense? I never quite thought of salvation in that light until reading thru the posts on this thread.

[Rían]

and SGH, your example of the car wreck, etc. are more difficult for me to understand. There is no free will involved here on the part of the person who was killed. I'll have to muse on that one awhile... I have some thoughts, but again, they are hard to formulate into sentences that you can type.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Would someone please explain to me why Mike did murder Cathy?

He was probably in a really foul mood because his stupid keyboard couldn't make diacritical marks, and he wanted to type his name with the little accent-thingy over the "i", like "MÃ*ke", then Cathy taunted him about it and he lost it....