08-16-2004, 03:24 PM | #41 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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08-18-2004, 12:34 PM | #42 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes, I would be fine with that, as long as I was informed when all the meetings would be so I could attend, and as long as they didn't want to present the info to, say, 1st graders.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-18-2004, 01:50 PM | #43 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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for the moment
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08-18-2004, 04:47 PM | #44 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Enjoy it while it lasts!
*hands brownie his favorite drink*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-22-2004, 02:07 PM | #45 | ||
Elf Lord
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Something done with good intentions can very definitely be evil, in my opinion. Many Germans in the 1960s believed that the Jews were a plague upon their people, an infestation of rats, essentially. Throughout history many people have believed it is right to persecute the Jews and have done so to the best of their ability. They were doing this with good intentions, with the full belief that it was morally respectable. In truth, from the viewpoint of knowing the divine standard, their actions were certainly not always morally respectable. But from their own human perspectives, like our perspectives about teaching abstinence, they were morally justified and were doing what they believed was right. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-22-2004, 06:45 PM | #46 |
Quasi Evil
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Just to be clear. I never said "teaching abstinance is evil". I said not offering VARIOUS ways of avoiding risky behavior is irresponsible in the highest. and because of the nature of humans (some will always choose to have sex) its essentially promoting death. so when you hold to this line because of social or religious dogma yes it is forcing your agenda over the bodies of others. thats all. but if you simply hold it to yourself then you are doing nothing wrong. just as those who disagree with homosexuality can choose not to engage in homosexual behavior.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
08-22-2004, 08:24 PM | #47 | ||||
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I still think that your argument pre-supposes that abstinence doesn't work. Your clarification of what you were saying doesn't really address that. Abstinence-only doesn't work so well as abstinence(perhaps)+safe-sex, therefore teaching abstinence-only is wrong. That pre-supposes that abstinence-only doesn't work better than abstinence+safe-sex. It looks to me like a bias against something that may be related to religious doctrine, but I may of course be wrong on that. Quote:
Aren't we allowed to have our religious beliefs influence the way we vote or the programs we support? My religious beliefs are part of my perception of reality. I have no choice but to act based upon them. If I believe that my house is going to fall down tomorrow, I have the freedom to move out of it, even if you don't think it will tumble. If I believe that sins are sending people to hell, I'm allowed to try to promote means to keep that catastrophe from happening, even if some don't think anyone's going to hell. If you believe the Soviet Union is going to blast the US away, you can vote that we have a more militaristic government, even if it inconveniences large numbers of people in the US, drains our economy and it turns out you were wrong. You have no choice but to see through your perception of reality and act accordingly. If I believe that abstinence-only is going to save many people from hell, I can support it, even if it results in the physical deaths of more people and it turns out that I was wrong. That's the way it works in a country where we have freedom of religion. The way we perceive reality is going to change our behavior. If we were all fundamentalist Christians, in America STDs would be virtually unheard of in our country. We have religious freedom, though. If we were all atheist, STD problems would sky-rocket (even with safe-sex taught everywhere in every city). I'm glad you have the freedom to be atheist and have your views influence the way you behave. I'm glad I have the freedom to be Christian and have my views influence the way I behave. This is even if it's in a way that to you seems morally sick. Abortion makes me feel the same way. Compare abstinence-only teachings with abortion if it makes you able to understand why we have this freedom. We have the freedom to make moral wrecks of ourselves. I believe our country's freedom has to a massive extent already done this to us. I believe that abstinence-only actually does a huge amount of good, causing people not to have sex and thus to avoid STDs in far better ways than partially effective safe-sex means could. I don't know which is more effective yet, therefore I still hold back my own judgment on which I'd support, abstinence-only or safe-sex+abstinence being taught. I still really don't know what my own beliefs are on this issue; I'm merely organizing for you comparisons and arguments about the issue of religious freedom. Quote:
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Agh, I haven't got time to explain myself very well on anything right now. I've got to go. I don't see how you can argue against abstinence-only when you support the freedom of abortion. Abstinence-only teachings don't kill or maim many people though, in my opinion . . . agh, I really don't have time. Sorry if I sound like a sicko .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-23-2004, 12:07 AM | #48 | ||
Elf Lord
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I guess you don't really have to read this post. To a large extent I repeat what I said earlier.
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People being grossly negligent by not offering condoms I think have the right in this respect to be grossly negligent. They believe there is a better way, and they have the right to act according to their religious beliefs. I'm just highly concerned with the opinion you've expressed that people aren't allowed to influence people around them with their religious beliefs. I'm very glad our government hasn't ruled in the way you've suggested. We'd end up with something fairly close to a Muslim state, where they don't allow religious freedom except within the home. The Muslim states are a more advanced version of what you're suggesting though, for there they cut down on prosteletizing along with freedom of religion.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-23-2004, 12:25 AM | #49 |
Elf Lord
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Lobby against me, but don't forbid me from lobbying
Insidious Rex, I think you're probably right in saying that religious beliefs held by some impacting people of other faiths through political means can be very wrong. My belief in religion might cause me to vote for something that harms other people, and that can be very wrong. However, that I also think is a necessary part of freedom of religion. If I haven't got the right to act upon my religious beliefs, my religious beliefs are being severely encroached upon. "Lobby against me, but don't forbid me from lobbying," is essentially what I'm saying. You can try to stop abstinence-only from being taught through saying, "it's a religion pushing position that imposes upon our rights" and succeeding in making that case in court. Win your case in court, but don't forbid anyone from arguing against you. Defeat something legally, but don't make it illegal to act based upon religion. Otherwise you're acting with religious intolerance.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-23-2004, 09:46 AM | #50 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i can understand and respect the intentions behind your ideals, but like so many ideals, be they religious or otherwise... they presuppose that you can somehow, someway, change the world, or even just your neighborhood or even just your family, so that all will hold the same view of life as you do history and daily life have proven again and again that this is just not possible... so the question is not 'what is the perfect way to deal with STDs', but 'what is the best way to deal with STDs in the real world we live in' i don't do the whole good/evil thing... but ignoring those who decide not to follow the abstinance route is, in the very least, thoughtless... no matter how good the intentions
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08-23-2004, 12:14 PM | #51 | |
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I really like your responses, brownjenkins . Always very well written and thoughtful.
It seems to me like you're to a very large extent restating what Insidious Rex said. It assumes that abstinence-only won't work (we live in a real world, etc.), or at least won't have very great impact. You stated that quite clearly. That, however, is what I need to see strong evidence for before I will accept it. I also will desire to see the case in favor of abstinence-only before agreeing with arguments from one side of the story. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-23-2004, 12:22 PM | #52 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't think those presuppositions are valid. And yes, a vote CAN change the world (just ask Al Gore!) Of course the world's not guaranteed to change the way I want it to. But that's not why I vote.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-23-2004, 12:26 PM | #53 | ||
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Reading a little more of the thread . . .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-23-2004, 12:32 PM | #54 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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unless you actually want to outlaw contraception, i see no reason not to inform people about it i also think you are short-changing our children... they are a lot more aware than you may think... whether taught by adults or not, they learn about sex and contraception very early in life... the question for me is do you want them to get the whole picture or just part of it?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-23-2004, 12:40 PM | #55 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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you know that as well as i do making murder illegal admits that murder exists and proposes ways to control it not teaching contraception ignores the fact that many people will never practice abstinance
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08-23-2004, 12:41 PM | #56 | |
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The evidence is that sex education, including condom education, does not lead to an increase in sexual activity. (World Health Organisation) As far as we can tell from good quality research, condom usage is the single most effective means of preventing HIV transmission.(World Health Organisation) This is old news. EDIT: Wow! Multi-simultaneous posts. Would just like to add that I think the onus is on those who support abstinence education to show that it works, rather than on those who oppose it to show that it doesn't. Last edited by The Gaffer : 08-23-2004 at 12:45 PM. |
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08-23-2004, 12:44 PM | #57 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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but even if the numbers were 10% or 5% or one kid (which i highly doubt they are)... it would be worth teaching about contraception
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08-23-2004, 12:50 PM | #58 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-23-2004 at 12:56 PM. |
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08-23-2004, 12:55 PM | #59 | ||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-23-2004, 12:59 PM | #60 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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