12-07-2002, 08:20 PM | #41 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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*comes running and falls on the ground of the thread* Finally I made it! Weekend! Moot-time! *looks at clock: 1.17 passed midnight* Ergl... I'll post tomorrow...
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12-08-2002, 01:42 AM | #42 | |||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2002 at 01:45 AM. |
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12-08-2002, 01:58 AM | #43 |
Elven Warrior
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im not sure if morgoth was paired with any element of earth such as wind, water etc. i would think morgoth had a little of all these elements. in the sil it says, " in the powers and knowledge of all the other valar he had part." that is probably why he was the mightiest of the ainur.
there arent too many of the valar that i liked. most of them seemed like mindless robotic servants of illuvatar. i liked ulmo and aule, they seemed to seperate themselves from the pack. tulkas was rather boring, all brawn and no brains, imagine that.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
12-08-2002, 02:59 AM | #44 | |
the Shrike
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One thing I've found interesting is Morgoth's (almost) obsession with not being able to fly in BOLT. Does this surface at any time in the Sil? (I've only read it once, and my memory isn't that great, so...) Anyway, the reason I brought it up, is that it's sorta interesting how some of the other valar (working from memory here) had dominance over the 'air' component, and Morgoth couldn't - and yet he had balrog (which may have had wings ) and winged serpents under his dominion.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 12-08-2002 at 03:08 AM. |
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12-08-2002, 03:34 AM | #45 | |
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12-08-2002, 01:42 PM | #46 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(ps - my last post was a joke - no one take it seriously, please! "Ergl" just sounded so funny to me that I tried to play around with it.)
That's interesting about Morgoth wanting to fly, BoP. I just have BoLT II, but I don't recall it (but it's been quite a while since I read it - I prefer UT and MR! ). Could you try a quick check in the index to see if you could find a section to share? That would make a lot of sense that he would be jealous of an area that is Manwë's, and that he is in command of corrupted "bird"-like creatures, as opposed to Manwë's lordly and powerful eagles. I need to re-look at BoLT - I just can't seem to get over that "Tinwelent" name, though! Yes, Ulmo's being alone is interesting. Perhaps even a third view, or a combination of your views, Artanis - Ilúvatar chose Ulmo to have the dissenting ideas because He knew that it wouldn't bother Ulmo to be alone with different ideas because of his personality. I like how Ulmo supports the other Valar, when the discussion is over and it's time for a decision, even when he does dissent - where is that part where JRRT says about Ulmo something like 'although he disagreed, he went along with their decision, because it is not the part of those who uphold authority to rebel against it if it doesn't suit them'. I could be way off, but I seem to remember something like that.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2002 at 01:45 PM. |
12-08-2002, 02:54 PM | #47 | |||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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beware! long post ahead!
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Ulmo stands alone but has a couple of Maiar at his side: Ossë and Uinen. Whereas Ossë is the unruly and untrustworthy side of the sea and Uinen is the softer side as mariners in need call upon her. She's also capable of subduing Ossë temper. Together they form a sort of trinity. It reminds me sometimes of Triton, a seagod. But that's probably my overactive imagination. I think it's very interesting that Tolkien assigned the extreme fields such as extreme cold (ice) and extreme heat (fire) to Melkor. Mostly evil characters have only a link with fire where I think Melkor has more depth. Extremes often lead to intolerance and we all know where that leads so I think it's very fitting to choose extremes as a field for Morgoth. Quote:
I think there are reasons for the choice of siblings among the Valar. IMO it ties the valar as a group closer together, also the different aspects of the siblings often corresponds. Oromë and Ness are siblings. Nessa's delight is in deer and Oromë is the lords of the woods where I assume you normally find deer. Vána is Yavanna's younger sister. Incidently Vána's field is youth. Vána's flowers also correspond nicely with Yavanna's field. An interesting fact is that Tolkien made Lórien and Mandos brothers. If that isn't a direct reference to the Greek Hypnos (god of sleep) and Thanatos (god of death) I'm a purple chicken. Nienna is their sister and the grief and sorrow that she impersonates relates closely to death and sleep IMO. Another interesting fact is that he wanted the gods to have children too, although he later changed that. Quote:
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A long and probably boring post, I know. But I couldn't let one of my favorite chapters go by without at least one post, now could I? You can all wake up now.
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12-09-2002, 01:33 AM | #48 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks, Eärniel, for the long (and NOT boring by any means) post!
I wasn't aware of Hypnos (god of sleep) and Thanatos (god of death) - yes, it sure sounds like Lórien and Mandos. And I like how Nienna is grouped with them. I would say that Olórin is definitely Gandalf, too. There's several little tidbits in MR about Olórin, and it's nice to know he is Gandalf. It really makes Galdalf's personality in ME make more sense. I like how he is an "inspire-er" of others. Did you really check to see if Feanor said "Ergl"? The "er" and "gil" definitions are from the Sil appendicies (I put those in to make the word sound more authentic!), then I put them together to match what you had typed And that's what I meant by "number" - I was wondering if anyone else would catch it, and you did!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-09-2002, 01:36 AM | #49 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hey BoP - you're absolutely right! I found a ref. in BoLT II, in "The Fall of Gondolin" :
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-09-2002, 01:47 AM | #50 | |
the Shrike
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Re: beware! long post ahead!
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BOLT 1, "The Coming of the Valar" Those twain gathered now wings of power to themselves and fared swiftly through the three airs. Vaitya is that which is wrapped dark and sluggish about the world and without it, but Ilwe is blue and clear and flows among the stars, and last came they to Vilna that is grey and therein the birds fly safely. BOLT 1, "The Tale of the Sun and the Moon" "There walks Manwe Sulimo often far out beyond the stars and watches it with love, and he is very near the heart of Illuvatar... But this have ever been and is yet the greatest bitterness to Melko, for in no wise of himself could he now forsake the bosom of the Earth, and belike ye shall yet hear how mightily his envy was increased when the great vessels of radiance set sail..." BOLT 1, "The Hiding of Valinor" Thereat did Tulkas laugh, saying naught might come now to Valinor save only by the topmost airs, "and Melko hath no power there..."
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 12-09-2002 at 01:52 AM. |
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12-09-2002, 01:49 AM | #51 |
the Shrike
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Rian, you found the key quote in BOLT 2, before I could have a look, but I'll give it a quick skim any way.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
12-09-2002, 02:33 AM | #52 | |
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I think those were some very perceptive comments, Earniel, and I enjoyed reading them . About the extremes and intolerance of Morgoth, the Maiar of the sea, those were some interesting meanings I hadn't looked at before. Thanks . As for the Balrog . . . I personally don't know whether they could fly or not, but it seems likely. They weren't creations of Morgoth, if I remember correctly, but were corrupted Maiar that joined his side. They were spirit type beings, although they became at least partially attached to Arda, like Melkor and the others that came into Arda. I doubt that they would have wings if they were useless, although that particular Balrog had been buried underneath the mountains for a long time, so that might be some explanation for its inability to go soaring like an eagle when thrown into the chasm. Plus, immediately after its fall began, it became locked in combat with Gandalf. They didn't fall separately like in the movie. |
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12-09-2002, 01:08 PM | #53 | |
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Hey Lief, why don't you take a couple chapters?
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-09-2002, 04:03 PM | #54 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Wow, people actually liked my post. There are still miracles in the world.
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SGH, if it would cheer you I'll volunteer for a chapter. I can't give more background reading than BOLT 1 and 2 but I can give it a shot. It'll be a challenge. If only someone will be kind enough to remind me when I have to post it.
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12-09-2002, 08:36 PM | #55 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-09-2002, 10:10 PM | #56 | |
Elf Lord
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12-11-2002, 05:44 AM | #57 |
Sapling
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Well, don't get too discouraged. I think this Silmarillion project is a great idea! It seems like a lot of people are participating, and I'm sure others are happy just reading the threads, especially new readers of the book.
Looking at your schedule, you're booked until next March, so I wouldn't be worried about the "lack of volunteers". I was kinda interested in doing the AKALLABETH or the RINGS OF POWER, but seeing as how they don't roll around until May 2004 (!), I didn't want to commit to something I might not be able to follow up on or forget about. Who knows what any of us will be doing THAT far in the future. 2 weeks might be more than enough time to discuss some of the shorter chapters. |
12-11-2002, 05:50 AM | #58 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Hello
Sorry I'm late to the party. Hope there's still some miruvor left in that punchbowl...
There are a lot of parallels with existing creation myths and mythologies, of course. We shouldn't be surprised, since JRRT himself was deeply religious. However, the element I love about the Sil is that Arda is created by the Music of the Ainur, like an orchestra. Thus, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This is not a "clockmaker" type myth; denizens of Arda have their own will and there is no deterministic sense in which events are pre-ordained. Is Melkor the God of Pride? My impression regarding Melkor was that his desire was to create for himself. His initial sin was pride, and belief that his will should prevail over others'. To me, this has moral resonance about how we (mis)use power, and links right through the Sil and LOTR to the likes of Saruman and even Ted Sandyman. When it became apprarent that this is not possible, jealousy and hatred are born, and the will simply to destroy what others have created. Very interesting contrast between Sauron and Melkor. Clearly, S learned a lot from Aule! Were there Ainur who didn't enter Arda? I seem to recall that not all of the Ainur chose to enter Arda. Is there any info in the secondary sources such as HOME about these? If they were involved in the Music, their personalities ought to be reflected in Arda. cheers d PS - I'm also an Ulmo fan. I'm sure Manwe's a dude, but Ulmo was a bit more hands-on. |
12-11-2002, 11:36 PM | #59 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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this is really strange - Dunadan, aren't there some posts missing, where we talked about the miruvor??
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-12-2002, 01:52 AM | #60 | ||
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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