11-18-2002, 09:00 PM | #41 | |||
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The question about whether Arda Remade would be better than Arda if it were unmarred - well, I don't think that Eru would be sitting around thinking "oh shoot, why can't someone just hurry up and rebel against me so that I can do a complex good!!" I think that both would be equally good, but perhaps just different - as two pictures by Monet can be equally brilliant but also different. It's certainly a complicated question.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-18-2002, 09:07 PM | #42 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And speaking of the complex good - I'd like to quote one of my favorite sections in the Ainulindalë:
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(gee, it's nice to be able to type fast! I can post such long quotes!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-18-2002 at 09:12 PM. |
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11-18-2002, 10:10 PM | #43 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And re Ulmo, who was most instructed in the music, it's interesting that the Eldar say that the echo of the Music of the Ainur lives most in water.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-19-2002, 01:05 AM | #44 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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The theme of music in creation is very interesting as a mechanism in relation to the movement of energy in nature. The wave form in light, sound and motion are universal in nature. Waves can compound or cancel one another, change form and media, and the motion is most visible in water. Water is also always associated with life. The vast water cycle of the earth, land, and sea create a great connectedness: water exists in all realms.
Ulmo seems to be most connected with the earth while Manwe is more connected to Illuvatar. Wheile Ulmo''s influence in middle earth is felt more immediately by the dwellers there, Manwe is most in touch with the will of the creator. The evil of Melkor is a complex question which cannot really be resolved. It is clear that Illuvatar's will is in his creation and that he could not do else but Illuvatar's intent. If Illuvatar intented there to be no evil in Middle Earth there couldn't be. I have trouble with the free will idea being applied to a deity. I think that the message is that evil exists to contrast to that which is good. The question arises as to whether free will can exist without temptation and fear. Melkor exists to manifest these aspects of nature. The evil is a force not for good but for greater good through trial. Would the Simarils evoked so much creation of the nature of elves sitting is a glass case in Arda? Would Beren and Luthien's tale be as powerful if they just settled down and had a few offspring? Melkor must be evil for the true nature of the inhabitants to be realized and for them to have free will. Like the music the experiment of Middle Earth has a beginning and an end. What exists outside is non-creation or potential creation. Not always silence but rather discord. The music of creation overlays the discord and even removes it by taking advantage of the harmonic tendency of all things to create somthing greater than the sum of the parts..
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-19-2002, 01:41 AM | #45 |
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The entries in this thread have been an interesting read. All of y'all 'philosophers' have been well spoken and have made informed and intellegent points. Of course philosophy is all a matter of opinion and there is no "right" answer in the debate over good vs. evil / marred vs. unmarred.
IMO, there must be balance in the universe/Ea. If there is good, then its opposite must also be present in the form of evil. Yin and Yang, matter and anti-matter, so to speak. While I cannot say what Illuvitars' "intent" was regarding the evil in Melkor, I feel that Arda unmarred would be a very boring place. Where's the story if everyone lives "happily ever after" right from the beginning? |
11-19-2002, 09:11 PM | #46 | |
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I wouldn't say that Tolkien's Ea is yin/yang, though - from letter #156 (one of the footnotes):
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-19-2002 at 09:13 PM. |
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11-19-2002, 09:16 PM | #47 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Keith K - your last paragraph reminds me of the following passage:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-19-2002, 10:51 PM | #48 | |
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11-19-2002, 11:04 PM | #49 |
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Perhaps, but I think that on the whole dualism is deeply flawed.
If what you say is true, what could possibly be the reason of remaking arda without the evil influences? That would, by your reasoning, be unbalancing the universe, and would be a bad thing.
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11-19-2002, 11:26 PM | #50 | |
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Actually, the attempt to remake Arda is merely a continuation of the original battle of good vs. evil. The duality exists. |
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11-19-2002, 11:38 PM | #51 | |
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11-19-2002, 11:41 PM | #52 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-19-2002, 11:52 PM | #53 |
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The duality can exist without being balanced. The dark side tends to be more insidious and "worldly" while the good side is more powerful by reason and beauty. Destruction is easier than creation but draws much less ardent and stalwart supporters.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-20-2002, 12:44 AM | #54 | ||||||||
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This are interesting things that I got out of the Music of the Ainur from BOLT 1.
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Che pensi tu?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. Last edited by Maedhros : 11-20-2002 at 12:46 AM. |
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11-20-2002, 02:06 AM | #55 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Maedhros, I read that last quote to mean that He was NOT grieved - IOW, it was NOT said that He was grieved, so He wasn't grieved. Opinions??
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-20-2002, 02:19 PM | #56 |
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I think it means it is not known whether he was grieved or not.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-20-2002, 02:34 PM | #57 |
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Yes, Cirdan, I think logically it certainly means that we don't know whether or not He was grieved. I think, however, classically that form is used to show that, in this case, He was not grieved over a situation where one might think that He might be grieved. Do you know what I mean? It's a way of saying, poetically and lyrically, "Well, you think that Ilúvatar might be bummed about some of his main guys faffing off to Arda, but I haven't heard that He was at all, so I guess it was cool!"
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-20-2002, 03:35 PM | #58 |
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I thinl you could assume he was not grieved as that would have been notable. You could also assume there was some grief at the parting or that things weren't quite as he had wished them. While it is open to interpretation I would agree with the former were I to choose.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-20-2002, 03:56 PM | #59 | |
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(whoa long sentense!)
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We are not things. |
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11-20-2002, 07:49 PM | #60 |
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Yes, that section in the Athrabeth is very intriguing, isn't it?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |